Christian ethics vs. Roman values

Jack said:
:) Pretty sure I didn't mention anything about western ethics and Encyclopedia Britannica.

I did ask you about your 'Christian Compassion' claim. Any reason you are avoiding that?
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So you confess that Encyclopedia Britannica and myself are correct about the broad outlines of ethics in western civilization.

As to compassion, it is an ethical value taught in the New Testament, and humans have the free will to choose to either live by that ethic or not.

Why don't you link me to one of my posts where I ever claimed that all christians throughout all history emulated the New Testament values taught by Jesus?
 
Jack said:
Oh good. Owl is here. Any possibility you could actually address the Topic?
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The topic is that you roared with laughter and incredulity at everything I wrote about the history of western ethics,

when the fact is the highly reputable, mainstream Encyclopedia Britannica fully supports pretty much everything I wrote.
 
Cypress said:
So you confess that Encyclopedia Britannica and myself are correct about the broad outlines of ethics in western civilization.

As to compassion, it is an ethical value taught in the New Testament, and humans have the free will to choose to either live by that ethic or not.

Why don't you link me to one of my posts where I ever claimed that all christians throughout all history emulated the New Testament values taught by Jesus?
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Cypress. This is a bit uncharacteristic of you. Now you shroud yourself with the Encyclopedia Britannica?
You have asserted that 'Christian Compassion' has guided Western Ethics.
One of my Questions, that you never answer is the treatment of Jews by Christians your idea of 'compassion'?

Now, please, don't do an Owl Twerk where you wildly start pointing at different things, say "Jack hates women", or "Jack hates Christians". Just in a calm measured voice, answer the question.
 
Cypress said:
The topic is that you roared with laughter and incredulity at everything I wrote about the history of western ethics,

when the fact is the highly reputable, mainstream Encyclopedia Britannica fully supports pretty much everything I wrote.
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Still avoiding the Questions posed.
 
Cypress said:
The only remaining question is who is more likely to be correct about the history of ethics in western civilization?


Obscure and anonymous message board poster "Jack"?

Or, the professional historians who contribute to Encyclopedia Britannica?
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Christians are assholes.
 
Jack said:
Cypress. This is a bit uncharacteristic of you. Now you shroud yourself with the Encyclopedia Britannica?
You have asserted that 'Christian Compassion' has guided Western Ethics.
One of my Questions, that you never answer is the treatment of Jews by Christians your idea of 'compassion'?

Now, please, don't do an Owl Twerk where you wildly start pointing at different things, say "Jack hates women", or "Jack hates Christians". Just in a calm measured voice, answer the question.
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Your petty grudges about Owl are irrelevant.

I accept your tacit confession that Encyclopedia Britannica and me were correct about the broad outlines of western ethical history,.

And I accept your white flag of surrender that you cannot locate any post of mine in which I claimed that all christians, all popes, all priests throughout history have been diligent at emulating the example set by Jesus.

Carry on.
 
Cypress said:
Your petty grudges about Owl are irrelevant.

I accept your tacit confession that Encyclopedia Britannica and me were correct about the broad outlines of western ethical history,.

And I accept your white flag of surrender that you cannot locate any post of mine in which I claimed that all christians, all popes, all priests throughout history have been diligent at emulating the example set by Jesus.

Carry on.
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Hmmmm. I thought you were more of a discussion person than that.
 
Cypress said:
Me too. I am interested in historical truth and historical integrity.

Religion has many flaws, but the influence of Judeo-Christianity on western civilization is just a historical fact, for better or for worse.

I always figured Jack was unwillingly drugged to a fundamentalist church by his parents, which resulted in trauma.

That seems to be the only explanation for why he thinks Christianity is unrelentingly evil, universally corrupt, and has never done a single solitary thing to improve the human condition.

I write numerous threads about Hinduism, Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism and they curiously never make Jack angry or provoke the slightest hostile response from him
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Fascinating. I think you are on to something about the fundie church. He relishes using the term "spanking" -- any bets that he was often publicly spanked in front of the congregation, pants down and everything? Or perhaps he went to a parochial school where the nuns did the same. That would account for his hatred and fear of both women *and* Christianity.

As you said, like it or not, Christianity's influence on Western culture, politics, and art/music is HUGE. Like a medicine, it has both good and bad aspects. It is untrue that America was founded on Christianity as some claim. Its influence though is undeniable.

My only quibble with modern Christians in America comes from the attempts by some sects to insert their beliefs into our government and our laws. They don't seem to realize that the only reason they are allowed to worship as they please IS our government and our laws.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Jack just hates. He has no interest in learning. OTOH, it's an interesting distinction about the Christian vs Roman/"practical reasoning" morality.

First, I'll submit that there are some Christians who do live up to those Christian ethics, but none of them are on television.

Lastly, the "practical reasoning" thing caught my eye and I'd both like to explore it since I happen to be a very big fan of practical reasoning.

Taking out the things that can't be proved, which form of morality is superior and why? Off hand, I'd say practical reasoning. The article hinted at a "might makes right" morality, and no doubt that is true, but to a modern mind, that's not always the most practical way to do things.

Might makes right is Warlords and peasants. It was the rise of the middle class that created all the wealth in the world. The idea of "having a piece of the action"**, capitalism, requires rights of the individual. It doesn't work without it. Christianity contributed to popularizing that idea, but it's also a logical progression for a practical and reasoning society.


**one of my favorite episodes.
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I am currently reading Augustine on reason and faith.

It is what I told Jack a week ago. In the Greco-Roman tradition, exercising mercy or charity was an individual choice based on practicality. It was situational.

The Judeo-Christian tradition elevated the moral realm to a theologically and morally binding categorical imperative.

If we want to complain about Christianity, I would elevate anti-semitism to the top of the heap, and much of that is because the later gospel and epistle writers wrote things that are clearly anti-jewish
 
Cypress said:
It is what I told Jack a week ago. In the Greco-Roman tradition, exercising mercy or charity was an individual choice based on practicality.

The Judeo-Christian tradition elevated the moral realm to a theologically and morally binding imperative.


If we want to complain about Christianity, I would elevate anti-semitism to the top of the heap, and much of that is because the later gospel and epistle writers wrote things that are clearly anti-jewish
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So, believing you are a good person is more important than being a good person.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Fascinating. I think you are on to something about the fundie church. He relishes using the term "spanking" -- any bets that he was often publicly spanked in front of the congregation, pants down and everything? Or perhaps he went to a parochial school where the nuns did the same. That would account for his hatred and fear of both women *and* Christianity.

As you said, like it or not, Christianity's influence on Western culture, politics, and art/music is HUGE. Like a medicine, it has both good and bad aspects. It is untrue that America was founded on Christianity as some claim. Its influence though is undeniable.

My only quibble with modern Christians in America comes from the attempts by some sects to insert their beliefs into our government and our laws. They don't seem to realize that the only reason they are allowed to worship as they please IS our government and our laws.
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America was a great experiment because we supposedly embraced plurality, and rejected the doctrine of a state church.

I think the reason the Romans of late antiquity, the Byzantine Empire, tsarist Russia embraced the concept of a state church of-sorts is because they were empires who perceived a need for a unifying force or institution to keep their realm stitched together.
 
BidenPresident said:
So, believing you are a good person is more important than being a good person.
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I am simply stating historical facts, and these facts are fully supported by the reputable and non-partisan Encyclopedia Britannica.

My disposition is generally drawn to clinical facts, data, and genuine historical scholarship.


I leave making value judgements to you.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
I think I'll have to go with the people who have spent lifetimes studying historical records from antiquity to modern times.

Jack seeks to insult and attempt to humiliate others. Since he hates women, he uses graphic sexual imagery to try to demean us. Since he hates Christians, he considers calling someone that he KNOWS is not Christian that epithet to be the height of insult.

It's not. My mom was a sainted Christian, a Sunday School teacher. She would have counseled Jack to set aside his rage and hate and come to the Lord. She would have forgiven him for all the ugly things he has said over the years to women on various forums. She would have prayed earnestly for him.

I prefer laughing at him, myself. :laugh:
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Jack needs help....even if it's helping him pack for vacation. His emotional outbursts/habits cloud his judgement.

Your mom's method would have been kinder, but he needs counseling. Group therapy or something to break up that block of hatred he has buried deep inside him.

Agreed on going with the scholars as a source of info over "some guy on the Internet said..." like Trumpers love to do.
 
Cypress said:
I am simply stating historical facts, and these facts are fully supported by the reputable and non-partisan Encyclopedia Britannica.

My disposition is generally drawn to clinical facts, data, and genuine historical scholarship.


I leave making value judgements to you.
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I really don't find this discussion productive. You're just proselytizing.
 
BidenPresident said:
Cypress said:
I am currently reading Augustine on reason and faith.

It is what I told Jack a week ago. In the Greco-Roman tradition, exercising mercy or charity was an individual choice based on practicality. It was situational.

The Judeo-Christian tradition elevated the moral realm to a theologically and morally binding categorical imperative.

If we want to complain about Christianity, I would elevate anti-semitism to the top of the heap, and much of that is because the later gospel and epistle writers wrote things that are clearly anti-jewish
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So, believing you are a good person is more important than being a good person.
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How do you see that in his post?

FWIW, I think a person has to want to be a good person in order to actually be a good person. You and I have seen people on this forum who obviously have no desire to be a good person, a better person or a logical person. Mostly because most are elderly nutjobs, but also because of attitude.

Attitude helps drive motivation and motivation is what a person needs to act on a chosen desire.

That said, as the OP points out, isn't "good" relative? The Christians thought the kindness, equality thing was good and the Romans thought more like modern Americans: "Fuck you, I've got mine".

While the American attitude is "practical" and "reasonable", as a nation I doubt that attitude is "good" for the nation in competing against other nations.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
How do you see that in his post?

FWIW, I think a person has to want to be a good person in order to actually be a good person. You and I have seen people on this forum who obviously have no desire to be a good person, a better person or a logical person. Mostly because most are elderly nutjobs, but also because of attitude.

Attitude helps drive motivation and motivation is what a person needs to act on a chosen desire.

That said, as the OP points out, isn't "good" relative? The Christians thought the kindness, equality thing was good and the Romans thought more like modern Americans: "Fuck you, I've got mine".
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No, Romans were pragmatists.
 
BidenPresident said:
Cypress said:
I am simply stating historical facts, and these facts are fully supported by the reputable and non-partisan Encyclopedia Britannica.

My disposition is generally drawn to clinical facts, data, and genuine historical scholarship.


I leave making value judgements to you.
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I really don't find this discussion productive. You're just proselytizing.
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Your choice. Disagreed. It's a free country.

About 3/4s of Americans are Christians. About 2B people around the world are Christian with another 2B being Muslim.

Even if you hate Christianity with every part of your being like Jack, if you want to change something, it's important to understand it first. You don't want to understand it because hate isn't about understanding. Hate is about destruction.

IMO, it appears Cypress was raised Russian Orthodox, I don't see him proselytizing or even very religious where religious dogma conflicts with science/reality/fact.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Your choice. Disagreed. It's a free country.

About 3/4s of Americans are Christians. About 2B people around the world are Christian with another 2B being Muslim.

Even if you hate Christianity with every part of your being like Jack, if you want to change something, it's important to understand it first. You don't want to understand it because hate isn't about understanding. Hate is about destruction.
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Look, I understand it fine. No need to rehearse this dead issue.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Jack needs help....even if it's helping him pack for vacation. His emotional outbursts/habits cloud his judgement.

Your mom's method would have been kinder, but he needs counseling. Group therapy or something to break up that block of hatred he has buried deep inside him.

Agreed on going with the scholars as a source of info over "some guy on the Internet said..." like Trumpers love to do.
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I'm starting to see your POV that he is bipolar. He's been absolutely bonkers the last couple of days. And revealing, very revealing indeed.
 
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