Christian ethics vs. Roman values

Jack said:
Looks like you are doing some voodoo magic here. I thought you were extolling the virtues of 'Christian Compassion'.
As stated before, I doubt Jews felt much of this 'compassion' for the last 2,000 years.
The Spanish Inquisition is a good example of 'Christian Compassion'. Synonymous with Torture and Murder.
Do you really believe South America willingly turned to Roman Catholicism?
Was Puritans hanging Quakers in Boston 'Christian Compassion'?
I asked you before, since you claim to live in California, why are they taking down the Statues of Father Junipero Serra.

The Renaissance marked the beginning of the end for 'Christian Compassion'.

"The Renaissance is a period in European history marking the transition from the Middle Ages to modernity and covering the 15th and 16th centuries, characterized by an effort to revive and surpass ideas and achievements of classical antiquity. Wikipedia"

I don't want to have to go over the same thing with you. I've already concluded you have been brainwashed as a child, and I have no interest in trying to deprogram you.
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Never confuse organized religion with a personal relationship with God.
 
Cypress said:
America was a great experiment because we supposedly embraced plurality, and rejected the doctrine of a state church.

I think the reason the Romans of late antiquity, the Byzantine Empire, tsarist Russia embraced the concept of a state church of-sorts is because they were empires who perceived a need for a unifying force or institution to keep their realm stitched together.
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Yet the earlier Romans did not see it that way. When they conquered new lands, they allowed the locals to keep their religions, their gods, their language, their customs. They were only required to pay taxes and submit young men to join the legions to defend the empire.

Those who want to see America with only one state religion -- guess which one -- will destroy the freedom of worship (or not) that we enjoy. The problem with forcing YOUR faith on a country is that someday, a bigger guy will come along and force HIS faith on you.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Yet the earlier Romans did not see it that way. When they conquered new lands, they allowed the locals to keep their religions, their gods, their language, their customs. They were only required to pay taxes and submit young men to join the legions to defend the empire.

Those who want to see America with only one state religion -- guess which one -- will destroy the freedom of worship (or not) that we enjoy. The problem with forcing YOUR faith on a country is that someday, a bigger guy will come along and force HIS faith on you.
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The Roman Empire lasted about 500 years as a whole and the Eastern Empire lasted another thousand years. What you are describing was an evolution of society since the Romans weren't always forgiving when the religion of a captured state conflicted with Roman ideology. Note the execution of a rabbi circa 30AD.
;)
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Yet the earlier Romans did not see it that way. When they conquered new lands, they allowed the locals to keep their religions, their gods, their language, their customs. They were only required to pay taxes and submit young men to join the legions to defend the empire.

Those who want to see America with only one state religion -- guess which one -- will destroy the freedom of worship (or not) that we enjoy. The problem with forcing YOUR faith on a country is that someday, a bigger guy will come along and force HIS faith on you.
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A national religion would be the antithesis of what the founding fathers wanted!
What I see in all these discussions is the confusion between Holy Spirit filled believers.
And organized Christian religion which has nothing to do with true believers and a lot to do with their political beliefs first!
 
Disenchantment and Dogma. On Secularism

No, secularism cannot reassure us that the universe is governed by a benevolent deity, or that the wicked will be punished and the good rewarded, or that our souls will be clasped after death in the bosom of Abraham. But in leaving us to our devices, it does something better, because it does something truer.

It forces us into the search: for truth, for beauty, for justice. And from that search, conducted in whatever state of anguish, have come the triumphs of modernity: liberal democracy, the movements for civil equality, the profundities of modern science, the glories of modern art. For death, for grief, for sin, for guilt, these boons bring no relief. But compared to the promises of supernatural religion, they do have this to recommend them. They are real.

https://salmagundi.skidmore.edu/articles/360-disenchantment-and-dogma
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Yet the earlier Romans did not see it that way. When they conquered new lands, they allowed the locals to keep their religions, their gods, their language, their customs. They were only required to pay taxes and submit young men to join the legions to defend the empire.

Those who want to see America with only one state religion -- guess which one -- will destroy the freedom of worship (or not) that we enjoy. The problem with forcing YOUR faith on a country is that someday, a bigger guy will come along and force HIS faith on you.
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You are right.

By Constantine's day, the Roman empire had frayed and been through some very turbulent times. The empire almost came apart in the third century. There is a school of thought that Constantine perceived that Christianity could be a unifying institution the empire could ultimately coalesce around.

The Grand Prince Vladimir of Kiev had the same idea of bringing the unifying force of a single religion to Kievan Rus. He supposedly was leaning towards Islam until he found out Muslims couldn't drink! So he went with the Eastern Orthodox church.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
How do you see that in his post?

FWIW, I think a person has to want to be a good person in order to actually be a good person. You and I have seen people on this forum who obviously have no desire to be a good person, a better person or a logical person. Mostly because most are elderly nutjobs, but also because of attitude.

Attitude helps drive motivation and motivation is what a person needs to act on a chosen desire.

That said, as the OP points out, isn't "good" relative? The Christians thought the kindness, equality thing was good and the Romans thought more like modern Americans: "Fuck you, I've got mine".

While the American attitude is "practical" and "reasonable", as a nation I doubt that attitude is "good" for the nation in competing against other nations.
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The Melian debate from Greek antiquity gives some insight into the prevailing ethics of the Greco-Roman world. I think it comes from Thucydides.

Melias was a tiny, weak city state being attacked by the powerful Athens, though the Melians had never wronged Athens.

The Melians asked the Athenians what gave them the right to attack and subjugate Melias.

Athens responded that they had the right because they were more powerful, and if the tables were turned, the Melians would be right to subjugate Athens.

The Homerian epics show that the values of antiquity were, in general, bravery, personal reputation, courage in battle, personal honor.
 
Cypress said:
The Melian debate from Greek antiquity gives some insight into the prevailing ethics of the Greco-Roman world. I think it comes from Thucydides.

Melias was a tiny, weak city state being attacked by the powerful Athens, though the Melians had never wronged Athens.

The Melians asked the Athenians what gave them the right to attack and subjugate Melias.

Athens responded that they had the right because they were more powerful, and if the tables were turned, the Melians would be right to subjugate Athens.
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Logical and pragmatic responses from both sides. LOL
 
BidenPresident said:
Same principle the US uses.
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It is not what Jesus taught though.

I wrote about two thousand posts ago that trying to emulate Jesus is a choice one has to willfully commit to. Most Christians fall way short, and I suspect most Buddhists fall short of the eightfold noble path.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
True. OTOH, there are more enlightened paths.

It comes down to: Do you believe there is a Universal Morality or that morality is relative. IMO, it's relative.
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for sure.

Natural law - the concept that there is a universal, immutable morality humans can understand by the exercise of reason - is famously a product of Medieval Christianity, and some of that heritage is still with us today.

Natural law infuses the 1948 Declaration of Universal Human Rights
 
Cypress said:
for sure.

Natural law - the concept that there is a universal, immutable morality humans can understand by the exercise of reason - is famously product of Medieval Christianity, and some of that heritage is still with us today.

It infuses the 1948 Declaration of Universal Human Rightsh
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If there is natural law then let nature enforce it.
 
Cypress said:
for sure.

Natural law - the concept that there is a universal, immutable morality humans can understand by the exercise of reason - is famously a product of Medieval Christianity, and some of that heritage is still with us today.

Natural law infuses the 1948 Declaration of Universal Human Rights
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What evidence is there that this moral Universal Law exists?

Natural Laws exist; no matter how much faith a person has, if they step off a 10-story ledge, the result will be from Natural Law, not a Universal morality.

:)
 
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