Dick Cheney Was Right

Darla said:
SF I didn't "bother" with your response because I thought it was a horrible, heartless, ridiculous response, that's why. What's the point?

Just because I put up a thread about a terrorist attack involving an abortion provider, doesn't mean you need to race onto it and post the same stuff over again.

Again, what's the point? You insist on posting this stuff, and if you do it on my thread and I don't response, as witnessed by what you just said here, it's taken as my being cowed by your superior argument. Being a man, you couldn't possibly consider that I just don't want to go down this road with you again. I guess that idea would be foreign to you.
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Had the thread been about the doctor being murdered, then yes, you could expect me to not post what I did. But when you post that bullshit story to somehow justify what the doctor did, then I am absolutely going to respond to that.

So quit acting innocent. Your intent was to justify the doctor's lust to kill kids.
 
Superfreak said:
Well, you do possess the same ignorant arguments when it comes to abortion.

'Oh, I will dehumanize the child so I can justify killing it' .... slightly different versions, yet still the same tired story.
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Don't you have to dehumanize women to make an argument that essentially says their bodies are the property of the state?

I know this is probably hard for you to comprehend, but I absolutely do not see a fetus in the 1st trimester as a child, or abortion as "killing." There will never be agreement from both sides on this, but I think it's important that you know that there is no massive rationalization & "dehumanizing" that has to go on for me to arrive at this mindset. It just is; physiologically, psychologically, spiritually, however you want to look at it - I do not think for a second that a fetus in the 1st trimester is a "life." It's why Roe is such a good compromise, and why arguments for later term abortions are much more difficult.

The "pro life" movement should be about birth control, adoption & persuading the public to do everything & anything they can to avoid unwanted pregnancies. They should be absolutely nuts about birth control; they should be like TLC, wearing condoms from their glasses & clothes, and handing them out wherever they go. I always find it ironic that many who are "pro life" are also in the crowd that opposes sex education & easy access to birth control for minors.

It should NOT be about outlawing choice for women. The idea that a woman who becomes pregnant would ever be compelled legally to carry her pregnancy to term is insane to me. It represents a totalitarian kind of state - one in which people have no control over their bodies at all. It's chilling, and completely antithesis to the idea of freedom for all. When I hear crazies like Alan Keyes preach that even a woman who is raped has to carry through with the pregnancy, it's like he's speaking from another planet or time. How can anyone who advocates for that claim to have a soul, or care about life?
 
Onceler said:
Don't you have to dehumanize women to make an argument that essentially says their bodies are the property of the state?

I know this is probably hard for you to comprehend, but I absolutely do not see a fetus in the 1st trimester as a child, or abortion as "killing." There will never be agreement from both sides on this, but I think it's important that you know that there is no massive rationalization & "dehumanizing" that has to go on for me to arrive at this mindset. It just is; physiologically, psychologically, spiritually, however you want to look at it - I do not think for a second that a fetus in the 1st trimester is a "life." It's why Roe is such a good compromise, and why arguments for later term abortions are much more difficult.

The "pro life" movement should be about birth control, adoption & persuading the public to do everything & anything they can to avoid unwanted pregnancies. They should be absolutely nuts about birth control; they should be like TLC, wearing condoms from their glasses & clothes, and handing them out wherever they go. I always find it ironic that many who are "pro life" are also in the crowd that opposes sex education & easy access to birth control for minors.

It should NOT be about outlawing choice for women. The idea that a woman who becomes pregnant would ever be compelled legally to carry her pregnancy to term is insane to me. It represents a totalitarian kind of state - one in which people have no control over their bodies at all. It's chilling, and completely antithesis to the idea of freedom for all. When I hear crazies like Alan Keyes preach that even a woman who is raped has to carry through with the pregnancy, it's like he's speaking from another planet or time. How can anyone who advocates for that claim to have a soul, or care about life?
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No you piece of shit... no one is saying their bodies are 'properties of the state'.

I could care less if you 'see' a child in its first trimester as a 'not a child', a black person as 3/5 human, or a Jew as subhuman.

the very fact that your first trimester is completely arbitrary should tell you exactly how wrong it is. As long as you dehumanize the child, it makes you feel it is ok to kill it.

You say the two sides will never agree on this point, on this I think you are wrong. I think the very fact that science dictates it is a child will eventually sink in.... and even the most ardent of denialists will succomb. That said, I do think there will always be disagreement on whether that unborn child should be entitled to basic human rights or not.

I totally agree with this statement..... "The "pro life" movement should be about birth control, adoption & persuading the public to do everything & anything they can to avoid unwanted pregnancies."

Quit hiding behind 'choice' that is simply yet another bullshit attempt to justify taking a human life. We do not get to CHOOSE to kill an innocent child. The only cases where the womans right to choose is taken from her is in the case of rape.... which accounts for what? 1% of abortions? The other 99% the woman (and man) made choices. Those choices led to an innocent life being created. That childs life becomes their responsibility, a responsibility that was a direct result of their actions and choices.
 
"No you piece of shit... no one is saying their bodies are 'properties of the state'. "

Rationalize it however you want. If you completely outlaw abortion, that is exactly what you are saying.
 
if bodies aren't the property of the state, why do states force medical treatment on minors? why do they outlaw assisted suicide? what gives them the power
 
It aint A human until it can survive separate from the mother --- ie third trimester. It's just human, like a severed toe, until then.

People on here argue about when that point is. Is it 20 weeks? Is it 23 weeks? Gee, there maybe kind of once was a case where a kid lived for a few hours at 20 weeks.

The point is if you want to go and argue about whether it's 21 or 22 weeks then go ahead and lobby your legislators to move the date back 7 days. Moving it back 154 days is retarded.
 
ib1yysguy said:
It aint A human until it can survive separate from the mother --- ie third trimester. It's just human, like a severed toe, until then.

People on here argue about when that point is. Is it 20 weeks? Is it 23 weeks? Gee, there maybe kind of once was a case where a kid lived for a few hours at 20 weeks.

The point is if you want to go and argue about whether it's 21 or 22 weeks then go ahead and lobby your legislators to move the date back 7 days. Moving it back 154 days is retarded.
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stupid argument, so those in coma's who can't survivie withiout machines are not human....
 
Onceler said:
It should NOT be about outlawing choice for women. The idea that a woman who becomes pregnant would ever be compelled legally to carry her pregnancy to term is insane to me.
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wouldn't it be more responsible and mature for the woman to understand that sex, protected or not, carries with it even the slightest possibility of pregnancy and that one should be prepared to carry out to term if the slightest actually happens?
 
Superfreak said:
Had the thread been about the doctor being murdered, then yes, you could expect me to not post what I did. But when you post that bullshit story to somehow justify what the doctor did, then I am absolutely going to respond to that.

So quit acting innocent. Your intent was to justify the doctor's lust to kill kids.
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I understand that in this life, situations can arise that are horrific and tragic, and that any woman entering into a third-trimester abortion has found herself in one of them. If you want to know, there are going to be many first person accounts from women who had to obtain one from Dr. Tiller. In fact, there already are. They're out there, and more are being published now.

But you don't want to know. You are fanatical on this subject, and that's why I don't argue it with you. What can come from that other than your freaking out and calling names like you just did to Onceler? But when you post on a thread that I put up, this kind of rhetoric, and I don't dispute it, then people, including yourself, think I either agree with it, or am stuck on how to dispute it. I'm not stuck. I could go 100, 1,000, rounds with you on this and never get stuck.

And at the end of that, I would still hold my pro-choice opinion, and you would still hold your anti-choice opinion, and we would have called each other a lot of unforgivable names, and both feel bad.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
wouldn't it be more responsible and mature for the woman to understand that sex, protected or not, carries with it even the slightest possibility of pregnancy and that one should be prepared to carry out to term if the slightest actually happens?
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No. And who do you believe these impregnated women are having sex with?
 
ib1yysguy said:
They were people before they were on machines. You can't stop being a person.
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your logic is that if a biological cannot survive without assistance, one is not a human or does not become human, yet, you believe that humans are still human when they can't live without assistance....illogical to say the least, that to be considered a human, you have to live without assistance, but once you're considered human and you can't live without assistance you're still human....
 
SmarterThanYou said:
why wouldn't it be more responsible?

and the men should also be more responsible as well as accountable.
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Deciding that any time you have sex, should a pregnancy ensue, you must carry it to term, has nothing to do with being responsible, it's just stupid. Anyone can have a condom slip off, in fact, if a person hasn't experienced that, I really question their overall experience. Unless they are long married and to the same person, and simply never or rarely used them.

The idea that if a condom should slip off I must bear a child, is absurd.

And the fact that you didn't mention men leads me to believe that you are victim to the "those cold horrid women marching off to have abortions while the men who impregnanted them hang onto their legs, screaming please don't kill my baby, i'll take it, please let me have my baby" fictional narrative.

Which though useful to the misogynist anti-choice movement, is in fact simply not even partially true in the great majority of abortions that men are involved in, ie; know about and have expressed an opinion on.
 
Darla said:
Deciding that any time you have sex, should a pregnancy ensue, you must carry it to term, has nothing to do with being responsible, it's just stupid. Anyone can have a condom slip off, in fact, if a person hasn't experienced that, I really question their overall experience. Unless they are long married and to the same person, and simply never or rarely used them.

The idea that if a condom should slip off I must bear a child, is absurd.
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then like I said before, would it not be more responsible to know upfront that YES those kinds of things can happen?

Darla said:
And the fact that you didn't mention men leads me to believe that you are victim to the "those cold horrid women marching off to have abortions while the men who impregnanted them hang onto their legs, screaming please don't kill my baby, i'll take it, please let me have my baby" fictional narrative.

Which though useful to the misogynist anti-choice movement, is in fact simply not even partially true in the great majority of abortions that men are involved in, ie; know about and have expressed an opinion on.
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take your misogynistic rants and stuff them up your ass. I included men after you asked about it with the caveat that they should also be held responsible.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
then like I said before, would it not be more responsible to know upfront that YES those kinds of things can happen?
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Are you honestly claiming that you believe there are adults who don't know that sex can cause pregnancy? WTF are you babbling about?

I am 100% supportive of sex education and access to birth control for teens. If you are worried about adults not knowing that sexual intercourse can cause a pregnancy, then I really have no idea where you live, but I bet it's no tourist attraction.
 
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