Do You Think The Rich Should Be Taxed More?

[evince]

"Voter suppression efforts" is the key term. They cannot really document suppression occurred. Voter turnout should have declined in states with a voter ID and remained the same in other states; instead, voter turnout increased and decreased in all states regardless of voter ID. But even with those efforts voting is still much easier than in the past. A person can register at any time including by mail, are asked if they want to register when getting a driver's license or government benefits, and do not even have to prove they are American citizens. Early voting (including mail-in ballots) start about two weeks before the election. Some states allow registration and voting on the same day.

This is all considerably easier than past years in which a person might have only Jan-Feb to register and there was no early voting. For years I heard "more people would vote if we only made voting easier" and we continued to make it easier and easier and turnout only declined including Democratic states.

My point was that people have more, not less, power than before. You basically agree because you say they have collective power which is asleep but they could rise up if they "knew" what is going on. I agree Americans are uninformed, but they have no less power and are no more uninformed than ever. I think you are romanticizing some vision of the past (economically and politically). If the people ever "wake up" in your words, I think half would go right and half left but my guess is that you think they would all go left. That sounds like all my college buddies in the sixties talking about "power to the people" and "when the revolution comes."

It has been documented in cold hard Court cases


You lying about that wont change the facts

 

[evince]

I stopped at the point I highlighted in red


no sense reading what a liar posts

 

[evince]

Well, that was the point. Most consumer spending is done by the upper 20% because they have the most money. Reducing their income reduces the amount they can spend on consumer goods and services. I don't think there is any evidence that luxury items do not have as much secondary spending as other items. The workmen who make, sell, and maintain yachts spend their salaries on food, housing, clothing, utilities, and transportation the same as workers who manufacture Ford Fiestas.

As the article explained, the wealthy lost the most in the recession and their spending on luxury items took a big plunge affecting an entire sector of the economy. People still had to spend money on food, housing, and utilities, but not on luxury items which put many out of work. Taking more of their income has a negative effect on consumer spending. Whether they "need" more luxury items is not a decision government should make.

Increasing the income of middle and lower income workers is a separate subject and is not helped by increasing taxes on higher income groups unless their money is redistributed to lower income which is already done through a trillion dollars annually in EITC and and other social welfare programs which only perpetuate the problem and do not provide any long-term solutions. The effort should be on matching employees with jobs with a potential for increased wages and work training.

The college from which I retired is trying to restart its welding program due to increased industrial jobs in the area. The training pays tuition and minimum wage. They cannot fill the class because they can't find enough students who can pass the drug test.

again why read any more of this lie filled trash


this person is positing that the economy runs by the 1 %s spending


utter insanity not worth treating as a reasonable debate

 

[Ross Dolan]

Hello Frank,

I'm glad you enjoyed that well written post by Flash.

Hold on to your armchair.

I am producing a worthy response.

I will be posting it soon....

 

[evince]

debating with liars as if they are not liars gains you what?


It gains the liar respect

 

[goldkam]

Under Socialism we wouldn't have to tax the rich more

But wouldn't you agree socialism has done its day and quite simply failed within society. Socialism simply does not work in the modern world, thus this concept too doesn't work in simplistic terms.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello evince,

again why read any more of this lie filled trash

Because Flash is making a point to support his beliefs, and he is doing so in a polite way.

Conversely, if you treated me the way you treat those with whom you disagree, I would not even be talking to you.

If you disagree with Flash, you'll make a better dispute of it by showing why you disagree rather than tossing out labels and refusing to debate.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Flash,

"Voter suppression efforts" is the key term. They cannot really document suppression occurred.

Who is the 'they' you are talking about here? Not that it matters. Voter suppression has been well documented by the fourth estate. There are too many examples of voter suppression to list them all in a post. Here's just ONE:

Have you ever heard of a book called: "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy," by Greg Palast?

"CHAPTER 1

JIM CROW IN CYBERSPACE:

The Unreported Story of How They Fixed the Vote in Florida

In the days following the [2000] presidential election, there were so many stories of African Americans erased from voter rolls you might think they were targeted by some kind of racial computer program. They were.

I have a copy of it: two silvery CD-ROM disks right out of the office computers of Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris. Once decoded and flowed into a database, they make for interesting, if chilling, reading. They tell us how our president was elected – and it wasn’t by the voters.

Here’s how it worked: Mostly, the disks contain data on Florida citizens – 57,700 of them. In the months leading up to the November 2000 balloting, Florida Secretary of State Harris, in coordination with Governor Jeb Bush, ordered local elections supervisors to purge these 57,700 from voter registries. In Harris’s computers, they are named as felons who have no right to vote in Florida.

Thomas Cooper is on the list: criminal scum, bad guy, felon, attempted voter. The Harris hit list says Cooper was convicted of a felony on January 30, 2007. 2007? You may suspect something’s wrong with the list. You’d be right. At least 90.2 percent of those on this “scrub” list, targeted to lose their civil rights, are innocent. Notably, over half – about 54 percent – are Black and Hispanic voters. Overwhelmingly, it is a list of Democrats. Secretary of State Harris declared George W. Bush winner of Florida, and thereby president, by a plurality of 537 votes over Al Gore. Now do the arithmetic. Over 50,000 voters wrongly targeted by the purge, mostly Blacks. My BBC researchers reported that Gore lost at least 22,000 votes as a result of this smart little black-box operation. ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_Democracy_Money_Can_Buy

Voter turnout should have declined in states with a voter ID and remained the same in other states; instead, voter turnout increased and decreased in all states regardless of voter ID. But even with those efforts voting is still much easier than in the past.

Not following you. Did voter turnout increase or decrease? Sounds like you said it did both. One thing we know: Black voter registrations have declined.

A person can register at any time including by mail, are asked if they want to register when getting a driver's license or government benefits, and do not even have to prove they are American citizens. Early voting (including mail-in ballots) start about two weeks before the election. Some states allow registration and voting on the same day.

The rules vary from state to state. And they are constantly changing. I am surprised you didn't argue that we should go back to the original system where only property-owning white males could vote, and claim that abandoning that system is proof that it is now easier to vote. But in 2013, the Supreme Court's decision to strike down Section 4 of the Voting Rights Act resulted in many changes to voting laws which have made it more difficult to vote, and led to voter suppression. Early voting was cut back in North Carolina, and fewer blacks voted. Wisconsin imposed strict changes which shut out thousands of blacks from voting. A federal judge called the law 'a cure worse than the disease,' noting that there was no widespread evidence of the voter fraud the law was purported to be dealing with. Kris Kobach, the person President Trump put in charge of his bogus Election Integrity Commission, was repeatedly sued by the ACLU for voter suppression in Kansas.

This is all considerably easier than past years in which a person might have only Jan-Feb to register and there was no early voting. For years I heard "more people would vote if we only made voting easier" and we continued to make it easier and easier and turnout only declined including Democratic states.

It has been made easier for rich white people to vote. It has generally been made tougher for poor black people to vote. That explains the turnout.

My point was that people have more, not less, power than before. You basically agree because you say they have collective power which is asleep but they could rise up if they "knew" what is going on.

I shouldn't have to say this, but please pardon me if I reserve the right to be the one to actually decide what I agree to.

I agree Americans are uninformed, but they have no less power and are no more uninformed than ever.

I was once excited that the advent of the internet might lead to people being more informed, more able to discuss the issues of the nation, especially anonymously without fear of repercussion. I completely did not anticipate that disinformation efforts would make it so tricky to be informed that even with the world of information at our fingertips, many appear to be now not only less informed, but filled with so many wrong ideas, fake news, and false 'facts,' that they are even less useful to the concept of 'a well informed and actively engaged populace.'

To loosely paraphrase Reagan, it is not that so many are so poorly informed, it is that they are so bewildered by so much wrong information.

I think you are romanticizing some vision of the past (economically and politically). If the people ever "wake up" in your words, I think half would go right and half left but my guess is that you think they would all go left.

Well if 22,000 people in Florida had not had their votes suppressed, and voted Democratic in 2000, Al Gore would have been president instead of W.

That sounds like all my college buddies in the sixties talking about "power to the people" and "when the revolution comes."

Much of the hope from the 60's died with the assassinations of MLK and Robert Kennedy. Robert Kennedy looked very strong for beating Richard Nixon in the 68 election. I prefer to keep hope alive.

 

[Flash]

It has been documented in cold hard Court cases


You lying about that wont change the facts

Could you provide a link or the name of the court cases? The very few cases in which a person could not vote because of a lack of Voter ID was not because the person could not get an id but because he simply did not bring it or had not bothered to get one, sometimes because they did not know they needed one. There was no case in which a person did not qualify for an ID. There was the Texas case in which the Justice Department "predicted" 600,000 people could be prohibited from voting but the next election actually had increased voter turnout.

 

[Flash]

Hello Flash,

Not following you. Did voter turnout increase or decrease? Sounds like you said it did both. One thing we know: Black voter registrations have declined.

It does both. Sometimes voter turnout increases and sometimes it decreases depending on the election.

The rules vary from state to state. And they are constantly changing. I am surprised you didn't argue that we should go back to the original system where only property-owning white males could vote, and claim that abandoning that system is proof that it is now easier to vote. But in 2013, the Supreme Court's decision to strike down Section 4 of the Voting Rights Act resulted in many changes to voting laws which have made it more difficult to vote, and led to voter suppression. Early voting was cut back in North Carolina, and fewer blacks voted. Wisconsin imposed strict changes which shut out thousands of blacks from voting. A federal judge called the law 'a cure worse than the disease,' noting that there was no widespread evidence of the voter fraud the law was purported to be dealing with. Kris Kobach, the person President Trump put in charge of his bogus Election Integrity Commission, was repeatedly sued by the ACLU for voter suppression in Kansas.

Why are you surprised I didn't argue we should go back to property owners voting (property owning women could also vote)? I did not suggest these changes were bad, only pointing out that voting has become easier and easier with year-round voter registration by mail, early voting, mail-in ballots, etc. It certainly has not become more difficult to vote; yet, voter turnout has declined long-term.

It has been made easier for rich white people to vote. It has generally been made tougher for poor black people to vote. That explains the turnout.

Untrue: "The black voter turnout rate declined for the first time in 20 years in a presidential election, falling to 59.6% in 2016 after reaching a record-high 66.6% in 2012."
Black turnout as a percentage of total turnout has continued to increase from 9.8% of all voters in 1988 to 12.9% in 2012 and 11.9% in 2016. These increases would not hav happened if it was harder to blacks to vote.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...as-a-record-number-of-americans-cast-ballots/

I think you can attribute the decline in black voter turnout in 2016 to two candidates who both had negative ratings with the public.

I shouldn't have to say this, but please pardon me if I reserve the right to be the one to actually decide what I agree to.

I was just agreeing with your statement that the people have a lot of power if they would only choose to use it. And showing that is contrary to your previous statement tha the people have lost power from some previous (nonexistent) period in our history.

I was once excited that the advent of the internet might lead to people being more informed, more able to discuss the issues of the nation, especially anonymously without fear of repercussion. I completely did not anticipate that disinformation efforts would make it so tricky to be informed that even with the world of information at our fingertips, many appear to be now not only less informed, but filled with so many wrong ideas, fake news, and false 'facts,' that they are even less useful to the concept of 'a well informed and actively engaged populace.'

I certainly agree about the wild charges people are willing to believe, but I challenge your view that people are less informed--they have always been poorly informed. And you might look at the early press in America that was called "partisan press" because political parties operated the papers and people like Jefferson who hired reporters to place stories in newspapers. Today, of course, many more people have access to that information (and can read).

Much of the hope from the 60's died with the assassinations of MLK and Robert Kennedy. Robert Kennedy looked very strong for beating Richard Nixon in the 68 election. I prefer to keep hope alive.

True, but those were unrealistic, naive hopes. Had MLK and RFK both been elected president we would not see any big changes because those are hard to accomplish as both Obama and Trump have learned. "Change" is just a campaign slogan the public falls for every time.

Many posters claim Democrats are more educated and informed than Republicans and lambast Trump supporters as ignorant, rural, rednecks; yet, those rednecks could figure out how to vote in 2016 and Democrats couldn't?

Don't assume this statement means I am a Trump supporter, I am just pointing out inconsistencies of both sides.

 

[evince]

Could you provide a link or the name of the court cases? The very few cases in which a person could not vote because of a lack of Voter ID was not because the person could not get an id but because he simply did not bring it or had not bothered to get one, sometimes because they did not know they needed one. There was no case in which a person did not qualify for an ID. There was the Texas case in which the Justice Department "predicted" 600,000 people could be prohibited from voting but the next election actually had increased voter turnout.

the courts have determined these types of laws unconstitutional


I will go get the proof yet again

will you actually honor the facts I bring you or pretend again you never saw them or lie right into their face ?

 

[evince]

https://www.bing.com/search?q=id+la...8a6274792904d3843f0cb4eef&cc=US&setlang=en-US


Judge finds Wisconsin voter ID law unconstitutional | MSNBC
www.msnbc.com › Elections

In a big win for voting rights, Wisconsin's voter ID law has been struck down by a federal court, which found that it discriminates against racial minorities.
Federal Judge: Texas Voter ID Law Unconstitutional | …
https://www.texastribune.org/2014/10/09/federal-judge-rules-texas...

Oct 09, 2014 · Less than two weeks before the start of early voting, a federal judge ruled the state’s photo voter ID law unconstitutional late Thursday and ordered state officials to drop the new requirements.
Voter ID law in Arkansas again found unconstitutional ...
www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2014/05/voter_id_law_in...

May 02, 2014 · Voter ID law in Arkansas again found unconstitutional voter id arkansas rita sklar Rita Sklar, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Arkansas carries a copy of a lawsuit challenging Arkansas' voter ID law before a news conference in front of Pulaski County Courthouse in Little Rock, Ark., on April 16, 2014.
Why Pennsylvania's Voter ID Law Is Unconstitutional - …
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/08/why-penn...

Aug 16, 2012 · Why Pennsylvania's Voter ID Law Is Unconstitutional. ... Despite the current fever for voter-ID laws, ... The answer can be found in a bizarre—even farcical ...
Pennsylvania's Voter ID Law Found Unconstitutional ...
https://www.aclu.org/news/pennsylvanias-voter-id-law-found...

Jan 16, 2014 · FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: 212-549-2666, media@aclu.orgHARRISBURG – Commonwealth Court Judge Bernard L. McGinley issued an order today permanently blocking the controversial photo identification law that threatened to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters.
Court says Texas Voter ID law is only slightly ...
https://hotair.com/archives/2015/08/06/court-says-texas-voter-id...

Aug 06, 2015 · Court says Texas Voter ID law is only slightly unconstitutional; ... A decision by a 5th Circuit Court of Appeals panel to call the Texas Voter ID law ...
Arkansas voter ID law again found unconstitutional ...
www.masslive.com/.../2014/05/arkansas_voter_id_law_again_fo.html

May 03, 2014 · Arkansas voter ID law again found unconstitutional voter id arkansas rita sklar Rita Sklar, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Arkansas carries a copy of a lawsuit challenging Arkansas' voter ID law before a news conference in front of Pulaski County Courthouse in Little Rock, Ark., on April 16, 2014.
25 reasons why Voter ID laws are unconstitutional - AFL …
https://aflcio.org/2014/5/9/25-reasons-why-voter-identification...

May 09, 2014 · 25 Reasons Why Voter Identification Laws Are Unconstitutional ... Voter Identification Laws Are Unconstitutional ... why voter ID laws are unconstitutional, ...
Appeals court strikes down North Carolina’s voter-ID law ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/appeals-court...

Jul 29, 2016 · Watch video · The panel found the law ... the entire U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit ruled that Texas’s strict voter-ID law ... Robert Barnes has been a Washington Post ...
Texas Voter ID Law Violates Voting Rights Act, Court …
https://www.texastribune.org/.../20/appeals-court-rules-texas-voter-id

Jul 20, 2016 · Texas’ voter identification law violates the U.S. law prohibiting racial discrimination in elections, a federal appeals court ruled Wednesday.
Pennsylvania’s Voter ID Law Found Unconstitutional
https://www.aclupa.org/news/2014/01/17/pennsylvanias-voter-id-law...

HARRISBURG – Commonwealth Court Judge Bernard L. McGinley issued an order today permanently blocking the controversial photo identification law that threatened to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters.

 

[evince]

Hello evince,



Because Flash is making a point to support his beliefs, and he is doing so in a polite way.

Conversely, if you treated me the way you treat those with whom you disagree, I would not even be talking to you.

If you disagree with Flash, you'll make a better dispute of it by showing why you disagree rather than tossing out labels and refusing to debate.

there is no such thing as POLITE lying

 

[evince]

But wouldn't you agree socialism has done its day and quite simply failed within society. Socialism simply does not work in the modern world, thus this concept too doesn't work in simplistic terms.

the founders wrote elements of socialism right into the constitution

 

[evince]

Could you provide a link or the name of the court cases? The very few cases in which a person could not vote because of a lack of Voter ID was not because the person could not get an id but because he simply did not bring it or had not bothered to get one, sometimes because they did not know they needed one. There was no case in which a person did not qualify for an ID. There was the Texas case in which the Justice Department "predicted" 600,000 people could be prohibited from voting but the next election actually had increased voter turnout.

well ????

are you going to accept those facts ?

or lie into their face again?

 

[Flash]

the courts have determined these types of laws unconstitutional


I will go get the proof yet again

will you actually honor the facts I bring you or pretend again you never saw them or lie right into their face ?

I know how the courts have ruled about voter ID laws that are too strict. They have, however, allowed those voter IDs with some modifications. I was asking for cases or evidence in which a person could not vote because they could not get a voter ID. Even in some of those strict ID states voters did not even need an ID if they used a mail-in ballot.

 

[evince]

I know how the courts have ruled about voter ID laws that are too strict. They have, however, allowed those voter IDs with some modifications. I was asking for cases or evidence in which a person could not vote because they could not get a voter ID. Even in some of those strict ID states voters did not even need an ID if they used a mail-in ballot.

LINK????

 

[evince]

https://www.bing.com/search?q=id+la...8a6274792904d3843f0cb4eef&cc=US&setlang=en-US


Judge finds Wisconsin voter ID law unconstitutional | MSNBC
www.msnbc.com › Elections

In a big win for voting rights, Wisconsin's voter ID law has been struck down by a federal court, which found that it discriminates against racial minorities.
Federal Judge: Texas Voter ID Law Unconstitutional | …
https://www.texastribune.org/2014/10/09/federal-judge-rules-texas...

Oct 09, 2014 · Less than two weeks before the start of early voting, a federal judge ruled the state’s photo voter ID law unconstitutional late Thursday and ordered state officials to drop the new requirements.
Voter ID law in Arkansas again found unconstitutional ...
www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2014/05/voter_id_law_in...

May 02, 2014 · Voter ID law in Arkansas again found unconstitutional voter id arkansas rita sklar Rita Sklar, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Arkansas carries a copy of a lawsuit challenging Arkansas' voter ID law before a news conference in front of Pulaski County Courthouse in Little Rock, Ark., on April 16, 2014.
Why Pennsylvania's Voter ID Law Is Unconstitutional - …
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/08/why-penn...

Aug 16, 2012 · Why Pennsylvania's Voter ID Law Is Unconstitutional. ... Despite the current fever for voter-ID laws, ... The answer can be found in a bizarre—even farcical ...
Pennsylvania's Voter ID Law Found Unconstitutional ...
https://www.aclu.org/news/pennsylvanias-voter-id-law-found...

Jan 16, 2014 · FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: 212-549-2666, media@aclu.orgHARRISBURG – Commonwealth Court Judge Bernard L. McGinley issued an order today permanently blocking the controversial photo identification law that threatened to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters.
Court says Texas Voter ID law is only slightly ...
https://hotair.com/archives/2015/08/06/court-says-texas-voter-id...

Aug 06, 2015 · Court says Texas Voter ID law is only slightly unconstitutional; ... A decision by a 5th Circuit Court of Appeals panel to call the Texas Voter ID law ...
Arkansas voter ID law again found unconstitutional ...
www.masslive.com/.../2014/05/arkansas_voter_id_law_again_fo.html

May 03, 2014 · Arkansas voter ID law again found unconstitutional voter id arkansas rita sklar Rita Sklar, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Arkansas carries a copy of a lawsuit challenging Arkansas' voter ID law before a news conference in front of Pulaski County Courthouse in Little Rock, Ark., on April 16, 2014.
25 reasons why Voter ID laws are unconstitutional - AFL …
https://aflcio.org/2014/5/9/25-reasons-why-voter-identification...

May 09, 2014 · 25 Reasons Why Voter Identification Laws Are Unconstitutional ... Voter Identification Laws Are Unconstitutional ... why voter ID laws are unconstitutional, ...
Appeals court strikes down North Carolina’s voter-ID law ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/appeals-court...

Jul 29, 2016 · Watch video · The panel found the law ... the entire U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit ruled that Texas’s strict voter-ID law ... Robert Barnes has been a Washington Post ...
Texas Voter ID Law Violates Voting Rights Act, Court …
https://www.texastribune.org/.../20/appeals-court-rules-texas-voter-id

Jul 20, 2016 · Texas’ voter identification law violates the U.S. law prohibiting racial discrimination in elections, a federal appeals court ruled Wednesday.
Pennsylvania’s Voter ID Law Found Unconstitutional
https://www.aclupa.org/news/2014/01/17/pennsylvanias-voter-id-law...

HARRISBURG – Commonwealth Court Judge Bernard L. McGinley issued an order today permanently blocking the controversial photo identification law that threatened to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters.

this

 

[Flash]

there is no such thing as POLITE lying

Almost all my statements were accompanied by supporting information. You give me cases in which laws were struck down, not real examples of people of people who could not get a voter ID.

Also, my comments were in reference to current voter laws (IDs) and do not refer to actions in FL in 2000. We could both list numerous examples of cases in which election officials made it harder to vote for one party or even committed fraud.

When the Democratic party controlled Texas those voting in the Republican primary (parties hold their primaries separately) had maybe one precinct to vote while Democrats used all the same locations as the general election. So, when somebody showed up to vote at their general election precinct they were voting in the Democratic primary. Many did not realize there was a separate Republican primary location. So, both parties use the same methods and techniques to "suppress" votes.

I just viewed this as those Republican voters being uninformed, not suppressed.

 

[evince]

"Voter suppression efforts" is the key term. They cannot really document suppression occurred. Voter turnout should have declined in states with a voter ID and remained the same in other states; instead, voter turnout increased and decreased in all states regardless of voter ID. But even with those efforts voting is still much easier than in the past. A person can register at any time including by mail, are asked if they want to register when getting a driver's license or government benefits, and do not even have to prove they are American citizens. Early voting (including mail-in ballots) start about two weeks before the election. Some states allow registration and voting on the same day.

This is all considerably easier than past years in which a person might have only Jan-Feb to register and there was no early voting. For years I heard "more people would vote if we only made voting easier" and we continued to make it easier and easier and turnout only declined including Democratic states.

My point was that people have more, not less, power than before. You basically agree because you say they have collective power which is asleep but they could rise up if they "knew" what is going on. I agree Americans are uninformed, but they have no less power and are no more uninformed than ever. I think you are romanticizing some vision of the past (economically and politically). If the people ever "wake up" in your words, I think half would go right and half left but my guess is that you think they would all go left. That sounds like all my college buddies in the sixties talking about "power to the people" and "when the revolution comes."

post 338


you lied

I have given you this information before