Does evil exist?

[ZenMode]

how about multiple rapes and murders caused by people crossing the border illegally under Biden/Harris' open border and sanctuary city policies?.......should we put a stop to that?.......

I think that any rational being would recognize that a child being raped is something that should be stopped. Again, if you had the ability to stop A child being raped just by thinking about it, how many thousandths of a second would it take you to do it?

 

[PostmodernProphet]

What on earth does a would-be assassin's actions have to do with cancer in children????

separate answers to two different questions......

 

[PostmodernProphet]

I think that any rational being would recognize that a child being raped is something that should be stopped. Again, if you had the ability to stop A child being raped just by thinking about it, how many thousandths of a second would it take you to do it?

even if it required more than just thinking it wouldn't take any longer......

 

[ZenMode]

even if it required more than just thinking it wouldn't take any longer......

Right. Most able bodied people, even without the benefit of magical powers, would do something.

 

[Cypress]

Lots of people see the presence of evil as an obstacle to belief in God. They say if God created everything and evil exists then God created evil and thereby they cannot believe. But does evil actually exist or is it merely a way humans describe the absence of God? From a science standpoint cold doesnt exist as temperature measures the relative presence of heat not cold and cold is just the way described the absence of heat.

That idea from Saint Augustine that evil is just the absence of good never made sense to me.

There are evil people and evil choices, because the consequence of having free will is the choice of how to act.

I never thought it made any sense to call earthquakes, floods, and diseases 'evil'.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

earthquakes, floods

as I recall nowhere in scripture does God require people to live where they are at risk from earthquakes, floods, volcanos or hurricanes.......

 

[Cypress]

as I recall nowhere in scripture does God require people to live where they are at risk from earthquakes, floods, volcanos or hurricanes.......

That's what I have written before

 

[Cypress]

I don't see the existence of evil as an obstacle to believing in God. I see the fact that God stands by, and lets happen the most evil things you can imagine, as an obstacle to believing in God.

God could take away our free will and force us to act good, but then we wouldn't actually be human.

I don't know of any religions that promise life will be perfect, ideal, free of suffering and grief. I don't think we would even be human if life was perfect, because we would never cultivate the virtues of self-sacrifice, empathy, mercy, charity.

My sister died when she was 11. I never once felt like shaking my fist at the sky and cursing the gods. I'm pretty sure I knew from a young age life was not guaranteed to be free of adversity.

The question of why the gods allows evil to persist is still an open question that has not been satisfactorily answered.

As to whether god is indifferent to our suffering, that question is closed and answered. If the Christian testament is to be taken literally, God actively shared and participated in our suffering by taking human form and being tortured and crucified.

 

[dancindave]

Lots of people see the presence of evil as an obstacle to belief in God. They say if God created everything and evil exists then God created evil and thereby they cannot believe. But does evil actually exist or is it merely a way humans describe the absence of God? From a science standpoint cold doesnt exist as temperature measures the relative presence of heat not cold and cold is just the way described the absence of heat.

While for more than 50 years of Christian Nation SCOTUS "one nation under God with equal justice under law" where Christ existed before God therefore "man is God" existed before God precedent of Christiananality pedophilia not so master race not so master plan of suicidal super ego homicidal human farming Peter Principle pyramid scheme schizoid human reproduction immaculate virgin Mary medical pseudoscience son of Allah Jesus the Christ conception sociopsychopathilogical behavior is about as pathetic as islam flaming flying chariot pseudoscience Mohammed Valhalla pedophilia martyrdom......but so it goes for thieving US Constitution Bill of Rights - old glory's - old testaments arsonists...

 

[ZenMode]

God could take away our free will and force us to act good, but then we wouldn't actually be human.

I don't know of any religions that promise life will be perfect, ideal, free of suffering and grief. I don't think we would even be human if life was perfect, because we would never cultivate the virtues of self-sacrifice, empathy, mercy, charity.

My sister died when she was 11. I never once felt like shaking my fist at the sky and cursing the gods. I'm pretty sure I knew from a young age life was not guaranteed to be free of adversity.

The question of why the gods allows evil to persist is still an open question that has not been satisfactorily answered.

As to whether god is indifferent to our suffering, that question is closed and answered. If the Christian testament is to be taken literally, God actively shared and participated in our suffering by taking human form and being tortured and crucified.

"The question of why the gods allows evil to persist is still an open question that has not been satisfactorily answered."

First, free will doesn't exist, but that's a separate topic.

I bet nearly every Christian believes that God has intervened in their lives, or the life of someone they know, to help them. Aka "miracles happen every day". Many people believe that God made Trump turn his head to save his life. We know, per the Bible, that God freed his people from Egypt.

So, again, if you had the power to save a young, defenseless child from rape, just by thinking about it, why wouldn't you?

 

[Cypress]

"The question of why the gods allows evil to persist is still an open question that has not been satisfactorily answered."

First, free will doesn't exist, but that's a separate topic.

I bet nearly every Christian believes that God has intervened in their lives, or the life of someone they know, to help them. Aka "miracles happen every day". Many people believe that God made Trump turn his head to save his life. We know, per the Bible, that God freed his people from Egypt.

So, again, if you had the power to save a young, defenseless child from rape, just by thinking about it, why wouldn't you?

I think the fact you deny free will is just as bad as bible thumpers denying evolution.

Your example of a little girl being raped is intended to be emotionally manipulative.

The Holocaust is the worst thing that humans have done in the last century, why not use that?

According to the christian text, evil is eventually punished and held accountable.

In an atheist world there is no ultimate justice -- because the rapist gets away with it, and Stalin dies peacefully in his dacha never facing any consequences.

I do not know of any religion that has ever held that their diety is supposed to stop every crime, every disease, every natural disaster.

It sure would be nice if the world was ideal, perfect, disease free and crime free. But I've never heard of a religion that made that guarantee.

Thanks for the tacit agreement that according to the Christian text God is not indifferent to our suffering.

 

[ZenMode]

I think the fact you deny free will is just as bad as bible thumpers denying evolution.

Your example of a little girl being raped is intended to be emotionally manipulative.

Not at all. An adult female has a real shot at fighting off an attacker. Certainly, an adult female, if she were in a sexually abusive relationship, is able to remove herself from it.

I'm picking a situation where the victim really has no means of protecting themselves. I picked that to make a point, yes, but not to play on emotion.

The Holocaust is the worst thing that humans have done in the last century, why not use that?

I could have. The better question is probably why God turned his back on his chosen people and let it happen? Where were the plagues? Where were all the first borns being killed or SOMETHING to deter Hitler and the Nazis?

I do not know of any religion that has ever held that their diety is supposed to stop every crime, every disease, every natural disaster.

I'm not saying he should stop every crime.

It sure would be nice if the world was ideal, perfect, disease free and crime free. But I've never heard of a religion that made that guarantee.

I'm not asking for ideal. I'm just asking why an all-loving, all-powerful heavenly "father", who is working miracles every day wouldn't protect children from horrific abuse...as any decent human would.

 

[Cypress]

Not at all. An adult female has a real shit at fighting off an attacker. Certainly, an adult female, if she were in a sexually abusive relationship, is able to remove herself from it.

I'm picking a situation where the victim really has no means of protecting themselves. I picked that to make a point, yes, but not to play on emotion. I could have. The better question is probably why God turned his back on his chosen people and let it happen? Where were the plagues? Where were all the first borns being killed or SOMETHING to deter Hitler and the Nazis? I'm not saying he should stop every crime. I'm not asking for ideal. I'm just asking why an all-loving, all-powerful heavenly "father", who is working miracles every day wouldn't protect children from horrific abuse...as any decent human would.

Since you are so concerned about justice, let me leave it this way.

If I had to choose, I would pick the religious model which holds there is an ultimate justice and punishment for rapists, for Joseph Stalin, for Adolph Hitler.

In your atheist world view, there is no ultimate justice. The rapist gets away with it. Stalin gets away with it scot free, dying peacefully at his dacha never facing consequences for his crimes.

 

[Kafka]

Since you are so concerned about justice, let me leave it this way.

If I had to choose, I would pick the religious model which holds there is an ultimate justice and punishment for rapists, for Joseph Stalin, for Adolph Hitler.

In your atheist world view, there is no ultimate justice. The rapist gets away with it. Stalin gets away with it scot free, dying peacefully at his dacha never facing consequences for his crimes.

You seem to level this as an accusation against atheists. As if we are somehow "happy" that Stalin rests in peace. Nothing could be further from the truth, but just because something is unpleasant to the human mind does not mean that it must be otherwise.

I understand the thinking, everyone wants "justice" for wrong doers. But the sad fact is that no matter how good the wish is, it doesn't mean that it is necessarily so.

You claim to be agnostic but it honestly seems that you believe in a world of ultimate justice, a world in which sinners are punished which sounds a lot like a world which has an overall "judge" to sit in judgement. That's all well and good, in fact quite fine. Since everyone wants that kind of justice, but it does sort of feel like you may be not an agnostic at all. Is it just that you WISH for these things but you aren't sure they exist?

 

[Cypress]

You seem to level this as an accusation against atheists. As if we are somehow "happy" that Stalin rests in peace. Nothing could be further from the truth, but just because something is unpleasant to the human mind does not mean that it must be otherwise.

I understand the thinking, everyone wants "justice" for wrong doers. But the sad fact is that no matter how good the wish is, it doesn't mean that it is necessarily so.

You claim to be agnostic but it honestly seems that you believe in a world of ultimate justice, a world in which sinners are punished which sounds a lot like a world which has an overall "judge" to sit in judgement. That's all well and good, in fact quite fine. Since everyone wants that kind of justice, but it does sort of feel like you may be not an agnostic at all. Is it just that you WISH for these things but you aren't sure they exist?

The Atheist always wants the privilege of criticizing other thought systems, without defending their own.

Whatever you have to say about evil and suffering, the Christian Testament at least says that God is not indifferent to suffering, that he actively shared in our suffering, and promises there is an ultimate justice for evil.

Your atheist world view is deeply cynical and unappealing because evil frequently just goes unpunished, gets away with it scot free, and there is no ultimate justice or truth to human existence.

Atheists might be right about the nature of existence, but that doesn't mean their worldview is superior to a religious worldview, because the athethist worldview at face value is deeply cynical and nihilistic.

 

[Kafka]

The Atheist always wants the privilege of criticizing other thought systems, without defending their own.

Well, except for the many, many times atheists like myself have defended our position on this very forum.

Whatever you have to say about evil and suffering, the Christian Testament at least says that God is not indifferent to suffering, that he actively shared in our suffering, and promises there is an ultimate justice for evil.

Agreed. That is what it says.

But, again, did God truly share in the suffering? If he manifested himself as himself on earth and then arranged to sacrifice himself to himself but only after many thousands of generations of suffering and at least one time when He wiped out all life except a small cadre would seem to kind of moderate this "sharing" of the suffering.

But I 100% agree this is the theology and, as you note, a promise of justice for evil.

Many myths do that same thing as well.

Your atheist world view is deeply cynical and unappealing

And I see your point, from your pov you probably don't see any value. But, again, for those. of us who fail to see any evidence for the supernatural etc. our most sincere wishes carry no weight.

In some ways that IS sad, but in some ways it is also learning to accept the world as it is, not as one simply wishes it to be.

because evil frequently just goes unpunished, gets away with it scot free, and there is no ultimate justice or truth to human existence.

That is, indeed, what it kind of looks like. Truly evil people continue to live nice lives while truly good people suffer. BUT, the key is that the reverse also happens.

Things are just what they are.

Atheists might be right about the nature of existence, but that doesn't mean their worldview is superior to a religious worldview,

I rather think reality is superior to unfulfilled wishes. But I also recognize the psychological value to holding on to a well-loved myth that brings comfort.

because the athethist worldview at face value is deeply cynical and nihilistic.

Cynical and nihilist seem like loaded terms. As if you wish to demonize that which you don't like.

There are plenty of things in the world I don't like. But my simple dislike of them doesn't make them go away.

 

[Cypress]

Well, except for the many, many times atheists like myself have defended our position on this very forum.



Agreed. That is what it says.

But, again, did God truly share in the suffering? If he manifested himself as himself on earth and then arranged to sacrifice himself to himself but only after many thousands of generations of suffering and at least one time when He wiped out all life except a small cadre would seem to kind of moderate this "sharing" of the suffering.

But I 100% agree this is the theology and, as you note, a promise of justice for evil.

Many myths do that same thing as well.



And I see your point, from your pov you probably don't see any value. But, again, for those. of us who fail to see any evidence for the supernatural etc. our most sincere wishes carry no weight.

In some ways that IS sad, but in some ways it is also learning to accept the world as it is, not as one simply wishes it to be.



That is, indeed, what it kind of looks like. Truly evil people continue to live nice lives while truly good people suffer. BUT, the key is that the reverse also happens.

Things are just what they are.



I rather think reality is superior to unfulfilled wishes. But I also recognize the psychological value to holding on to a well-loved myth that brings comfort.



Cynical and nihilist seem like loaded terms. As if you wish to demonize that which you don't like.

There are plenty of things in the world I don't like. But my simple dislike of them doesn't make them go away.

In your belief system, Joseph Stalin died peacefully in his Dacha, never faced accountability, and got away scot free with decades diabolical crimes against humanity.

I don't see any way you can hold that out as a superior worldview to the Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist worldview of ultimate justice and accountability.

Atheism doesn't believe in any ultimate justice or truth. That's a steep price to pay, and that kind of deep cynicism is exactly why strict atheism is never going to appeal to any more than a small minority of people.

 

[Kafka]

In your belief system, Joseph Stalin died peacefully in his Dacha, never faced accountability, and got away scot free with decades diabolical crimes against humanity.

Yes we have established the very real horror of imagining a monster like Stalin dying peacefully. And you can gild that lily as much as you need to make it even more distressing.

Doesn't mean it is not true. No matter how much you and I both wish it were otherwise.

I don't see any way you can hold that out as a superior worldview to the Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist worldview of ultimate justice and accountability.

Ahh, I am only saying it is "superior" in that it accepts the world as it IS not as I would wish it to be. Like growing up and realizing there is no Santa Claus. Is it SUPERIOR to not believe in Santa? Well, not really, it's actually kind of sad to not have a universe in which Santa doesn't exist no matter how much we want him to. But it just IS what it is.

It's not superior except insofar as it dispenses with unevidenced and unnecessary things going on behind the scenes invisibly.

Atheism doesn't believe in any ultimate justice or truth.

But we DO believe in justice and truth. Just not from some mystical supernatural judge. We realize that in the grand scheme of the entire universe we aren't the center of it and all the horrors we do to each other are just that: us doing damage to each other. The lion doesn't care that we murder each other for no reason. The black hole devouring entire solar systems several lightyears away doesn't care that we exist.

Atheism is an attempt to accept the meal that arrived at the table, not the meal we dreamed we could possibly have.

That's a steep price to pay, and that kind of deep cynicism is exactly why strict atheism is never going to appeal to any more than a small minority of people.

I don't really care per se. I'm not on here to "sell" atheism. Just explain my atheism.

 

[Cypress]

Yes we have established the very real horror of imagining a monster like Stalin dying peacefully. And you can gild that lily as much as you need to make it even more distressing.

Doesn't mean it is not true. No matter how much you and I both wish it were otherwise.



Ahh, I am only saying it is "superior" in that it accepts the world as it IS not as I would wish it to be. Like growing up and realizing there is no Santa Claus. Is it SUPERIOR to not believe in Santa? Well, not really, it's actually kind of sad to not have a universe in which Santa doesn't exist no matter how much we want him to. But it just IS what it is.

It's not superior except insofar as it dispenses with unevidenced and unnecessary things going on behind the scenes invisibly.



But we DO believe in justice and truth. Just not from some mystical supernatural judge. We realize that in the grand scheme of the entire universe we aren't the center of it and all the horrors we do to each other are just that: us doing damage to each other. The lion doesn't care that we murder each other for no reason. The black hole devouring entire solar systems several lightyears away doesn't care that we exist.

Atheism is an attempt to accept the meal that arrived at the table, not the meal we dreamed we could possibly have.



I don't really care per se. I'm not on here to "sell" atheism. Just explain my atheism.

Any belief system that requires Joseph Stalin lived to a comfortable old age, dodged any ultimate accountability, and got away scot free with a lifetime of unprecedented inhumanity and cruelty, has no standing to complain about the concept of justice in other belief systems.

 

[ZenMode]

Since you are so concerned about justice, let me leave it this way.

If I had to choose, I would pick the religious model which holds there is an ultimate justice and punishment for rapists, for Joseph Stalin, for Adolph Hitler.

In your atheist world view, there is no ultimate justice. The rapist gets away with it. Stalin gets away with it scot free, dying peacefully at his dacha never facing consequences for his crimes.

I haven't said anything about justice. I just asked why the Christian God, who Christians believe performs miracles every day doesn't stop children from being raped like any decent human would.