Eastern philosophy says the self is an illusion

I think part of that is based on Christianity; the idea of God planting a soul into each person. The soul being the “I”, the ego, the individual.

Even if the Eastern philosophers were 100% correct, to function, human beings need a reference point for orientation in the Universe. Figure-Ground reference is used in psychology to for perception. Our basic reference point is the self with an orientation to family, friends, neighbors, state, country, culture, etc.

In keeping with Eastern philosophy, it’s good to remember there is a greater existence than the self. Using 1/6 as a reference, there where a whole lot of “I’s” out there, what’s best for themselves, and very few who thought about what’s best for the nation.

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-figure-ground-perception-2795195
Figure-Ground Perception in Psychology

True.

I don't think the Eastern traditions were intending to unmoor us from a sense of grounding. It was just a different perspective on the reality of existence.

Of course Confucianism emphasized familial piety, duty to family and state. So lumping all the East together is a stretch too.

But there really is no widespread western equivalent to the Hindu concept of Atman is Brahman, the Buddhist concept of impermanence, or the concept of becoming one with the Dao in Daoism. Christianity, Platonism, Humanism had a very strong focus of "I", as in the permanence of the individual self.
 
According to the Socratic maxim, every evil action is actually ignorance, because no one
“does evil voluntarily” (Protagoras 358b).

We are so accustomed to refer the problem of action to the will
that it is not easy for us to accept that the classical world thought
it, by contrast, almost exclusively in terms of knowledge. As has
been effectively observed, one could say that for the Greek person
“as soon as the good is known, freedom of action, which is for us
in the last analysis the decisive thing, is abolished.” In the Gorgias, Plato can thus write that the
intention expressed by the verb boulesthai is not directed toward
action, but toward its object, and that “a man doesn’t want this
thing that he is doing, but the thing for the sake of which he’s
doing it” , which as such can be nothing other than a
good, real or supposed .

Action is always secondary with respect to its end, and the
meaning of the word boulesthai, which is most often translated
as “to desire, to will,” is more similar to an intellectual judgment
than to an act of free will. And it is not only for love of paradox
that Gorgias’s Palamedes, in the imaginary trial brought against
him by Odysseus, defends himself by affirming that, if he is as
wise as people claim him to be, he cannot have committed the
crime of which he is accused because, if he had committed it,
then he could not be considered wise. The principle from which guilt springs—if one can speak of guilt—is not
“evil will,” but ignorance. People do not act because they want to
act, but because they know what is good for them, and what they
know, they can also do.

https://anarch.cc/uploads/giorgio-agamben/karman.pdf

^ I don't know what the point of this cut and paste is.

I don't think there is any historically sustained and widely accepted equivalent in the West to the Hindu concept of Atman - the individual is identical to the universal spirit - or the Buddhist concepts of no self and impermanence, or the Daoist concept of the universal Dao.
 
^ I don't know what the point of this cut and paste is.

I don't think there is any historically sustained and widely accepted equivalent in the West to the Hindu concept of Atman - the individual is identical to the universal spirit - or the Buddhist concepts of no self and impermanence, or the Daoist concept of the universal Dao.

Nothing in mainstream Western philosophy to my knowledge. Certainly nothing as popular as Hinduism or Buddhism. Most Western philosophy is egocentric based upon the idea of a soul.
 
Nothing in mainstream Western philosophy to my knowledge. Certainly nothing as popular as Hinduism or Buddhism. Most Western philosophy is egocentric based upon the idea of a soul.
you're right.

I think maybe the individual self is contained in memories.

Over the course of years and decades, our bodies are completely physically different, we change emotionally, we change intellectually, and we don't resemble the people we were 30 years ago. But memory grounds us in self identity. Even that is sketchy because memory is flawed.
 
^ I don't know what the point of this cut and paste is.

I don't think there is any historically sustained and widely accepted equivalent in the West to the Hindu concept of Atman - the individual is identical to the universal spirit - or the Buddhist concepts of no self and impermanence, or the Daoist concept of the universal Dao.

ok
 
Eastern philosophy says there is no “self.” Science agrees

Western view: The self is a pilot
This “I” is for most of us the first thing that pops into our minds when we think about who we are. The “I” represents the idea of our individual self, the one that sits between the ears and behind the eyes and is “piloting” the body. The “pilot” is in charge, it doesn’t change very much, and it feels to us like the thing that brings our thoughts and feelings to life. It observes, makes decisions, and carries out actions — just like the pilot of an airplane.

This I/ego is what we think of as our true selves, and this individual self is the experiencer and the controller of things like thoughts, feelings, and actions. The pilot self feels like it is running the show. It is stable and continuous. It is also in control of our physical body; for example, this self understands that it is “my body.” But unlike our physical body, it does not perceive itself as changing, ending (except, perhaps for atheists, in bodily death), or being influenced by anything other than itself.

Eastern view: The self is an illusion
Now let’s turn to the East. Buddhism, Taoism, the Advaita Vedanta school of Hinduism, and other schools of Eastern thought have quite a different take on the self, the ego, or “me.” They say that this idea of “me” is a fiction, although a very convincing one. Buddhism has a word for this concept — anatta, which is often translated as “no self” — which is one of the most fundamental tenets of Buddhism, if not the most important.

This idea sounds radical, even nonsensical, to those who are trained in Western traditions. It seems to contradict our everyday experience, indeed our whole sense of being. But in Buddhism and other schools of Eastern thought, the concept of the self is seen as the result of the thinking mind. The thinking mind reinvents the self from moment to moment such that it in no way resembles the stable coherent self most believe it to be.

Put another way, it is the process of thinking that creates the self, rather than there being a self having any independent existence separate from thought. The self is more like a verb than a noun. To take it a step further, the implication is that without thought, the self does not, in fact, exist. In the same way that walking only exists while one is walking, the self only exists while there are thoughts about it. As a neuropsychologist, I can say that in my view, science is just now catching up with what Buddhist, Taoist, and Advaita Vedanta Hinduism have been teaching for over 2,500 years.



https://bigthink.com/the-well/eastern-philosophy-neuroscience-no-self/


It seems to me that the self is a human view from a human perspective on earth. After death, when are spirit is no longer human, just like God is not human, there is no self.

“Heaven” is the experience of not being a disconnected self.
 
Eastern culture is correct. One of the core premises of meditation is experiencing what it's like to lose your sense of self.

As I said, ad nauseam in the other thread, there is no thinker of thoughts. There are only thoughts. There's no experiencer of experience. There is only experience.
 
It seems to me that the self is a human view from a human perspective on earth. After death, when are spirit is no longer human, just like God is not human, there is no self.

“Heaven” is the experience of not being a disconnected self.

Good point. My sense is that the concept of the self is that there is actually a discrete and tangible "I", "me", or "myself" behind and underneath conciousness and neurobiological activity.
 
Eastern culture is correct. One of the core premises of meditation is experiencing what it's like to lose your sense of self.

As I said, ad nauseam in the other thread, there is no thinker of thoughts. There are only thoughts. There's no experiencer of experience. There is only experience.

What you wrote in the other thread is that there is no such thing as choice.

I think even the Buddhist, Daoist, and Confucian sages thought humans could make a choice; that's why they dedicated their lives to teaching others.
 
No "self," nothing to HAVE an illusion.

I would be hesitant to embrace concepts of faith that were established under the influence of opium pipes.

Chinese food is great.
Asian broads are pretty.
That's the East's contribution.:cool:
 
If self (awareness) is an illusion, how do we experience it in the first place?
The viewer still exists. The point being that what they perceive is not always factual.

The good news is that if you understand it's an illusion, a magician's sleight of hand, then it's easier to see beyond it from the viewer's perspective.
 
If self (awareness) is an illusion, how do we experience it in the first place?

I don't think it's that self awareness doesn't exist.
It's whether there is a permanent and fixed "I" behind conciousness.

My sense is that in the Christian-Platonic framework there is a fixed, permanent, static "me" behind and underneath conciousness.

The Buddhist will tell you that you are not the same person you were 30 years ago, physically, emotionally, psychologically, intellectually, neurologically. Things are are always in change, always in flux. They would say you are kidding yourself that there is a fixed "I" behind your conciousness. What you are is pure thought, not a static me myself and I that lingers in the background in perpetuity
 
What you wrote in the other thread is that there is no such thing as choice.

I think even the Buddhist, Daoist, and Confucian sages thought humans could make a choice; that's why they dedicated their lives to teaching others.

I know a decent amount about the different types of meditation, but I've never studied with a truly experienced teacher, So while they all do teach that there is no self, I can't say for sure whether or not they carry that thought to the logical conclusion that, without a self, there can be no choice.
 
I know a decent amount about the different types of meditation, but I've never studied with a truly experienced teacher, So while they all do teach that there is no self, I can't say for sure whether or not they carry that thought to the logical conclusion that, without a self, there can be no choice.

I feel like if one wants to claim there is no such thing as choice, what's the point in teaching? People's choices are already set in stone, and there's nothing you can do to change it.
 
I feel like if one wants to claim there is no such thing as choice, what's the point in teaching? People's choices are already set in stone, and there's nothing you can do to change it.

I think Mode goes by the "beat into submission" theory of education since, by his POV, people can't choose to change.
 
Back
Top