Eastern philosophy says the self is an illusion

[Cypress]

I think Mode goes by the "beat into submission" theory of education since, by his POV, people can't choose to change.

Confucious must have thought he could change people's minds and make them consider a different way of life. In short, to give them an opportunity to make a deliberate choice. Otherwise why would he have devoted his to life teaching?

 

[ZenMode]

I feel like if one wants to claim there is no such thing as choice, what's the point in teaching? People's choices are already set in stone, and there's nothing you can do to change it.

Don't confuse determinism and fatalism. We make choices, but they're based on the totality of the life experiences that has structured our brain at a neurological level, not a self that sits separately from our stream of consciousness and is creating, moderating and filtering thoughts. We aren't born know right v wrong or hot v cold, but we learn, to some degree, and it impacts our decisions going forward.

 

[Commander Dutch]

Confucious must have thought he could change people's minds and make them consider a different way of life. In short, to give them an opportunity to make a deliberate choice. Otherwise why would he have devoted his to life teaching?

Agreed on teachers; they attempt to persuade others into making a choice to take an alternative path.

Determinists believe it doesn't matter; that people are stuck on a specific path regardless of outside influences because they are programmed to be that way.

 

[ZenMode]

Agreed on teachers; they attempt to persuade others into making a choice to take an alternative path.

If you, or anyone else is convinced/not convinced by a teacher, you didn't have a choice in being convinced/not convinced. The neurological structure of your brain is going to be impacted however it's going to be impacted by the teacher's words. To whatever degree that neurological change impacts future decisions is completely outside your control.

Determinists believe it doesn't matter; that people are stuck on a specific path regardless of outside influences because they are programmed to be that way.

I don't believe that determinism assumes anyone's inability to change. As I described above, change is not only possible, but unavoidable.

 

[Commander Dutch]

If you, or anyone else is convinced/not convinced by a teacher, you didn't have a choice in being convinced/not convinced.

The neurological structure of your brain is going to be impacted however it's going to be impacted by the teacher's words.
To whatever degree that neurological change impacts future decisions is completely outside your control.

I don't believe that determinism assumes anyone's inability to change. As I described above, change is not only possible, but unavoidable.

According to you. I'll wait for the evidence to the contrary of common sense and the laws of civilized nations.

The half-truth part. Correct: every experience will contribute to a person's experience's and, therefore, alter their view of further actions. You are saying that alteration is blind, like a robot. I'm saying they have a choice. In the end, they always have a choice between factors within a dichotomic Universe; hot and cold, up and down, left and right, inside and outside, Life and Death, etc, etc. Everything has two sides, two ends from a human perspective. You favor determinism, the "It's not my fault" position. I favor the opposite, Free Will, the "I accept responsibility for my own life".

People change. My dogs change because I modify their behavior on where to shit, where to eat, what it takes to earn a treat and when to get in their baskets. I'm saying people have a choice in their change. You keep saying "It's not my responsibility".

Looking forward to any corrections. TIA

 

[ZenMode]

According to you. I'll wait for the evidence to the contrary of common sense and the laws of civilized nations.

The half-truth part. Correct: every experience will contribute to a person's experience's and, therefore, alter their view of further actions. You are saying that alteration is blind, like a robot. I'm saying they have a choice. In the end, they always have a choice between factors within a dichotomic Universe; hot and cold, up and down, left and right, inside and outside, Life and Death, etc, etc. Everything has two sides, two ends from a human perspective. You favor determinism, the "It's not my fault" position. I favor the opposite, Free Will, the "I accept responsibility for my own life".

People change. My dogs change because I modify their behavior on where to shit, where to eat, what it takes to earn a treat and when to get in their baskets. I'm saying people have a choice in their change. You keep saying "It's not my responsibility".

Looking forward to any corrections. TIA

The only difference between you and your dog, as far as outside influences changing your future behavior is concerned, is humans have the ability to use complex language.

You have no control over how much you are impacted by an outside influence. I've read writings by people that are huge into tent camping. They post amazing pictures, write colorful descriptions of mountains, streams, wildlife, etc. Yet, despite their best efforts, I have little to no interest in tent camping across the united states. I can't "free will" myself into being excited about the prospect of tent camping.

On the other hand, if I read something tomorrow that absolutely changed my mind, I couldn't "free will" myself into not being excited.

 

[Commander Dutch]

The only difference between you and your dog, as far as outside influences changing your future behavior is concerned, is humans have the ability to use complex language.

You have no control over how much you are impacted by an outside influence. I've read writings by people that are huge into tent camping. They post amazing pictures, write colorful descriptions of mountains, streams, wildlife, etc. Yet, despite their best efforts, I have little to no interest in tent camping across the united states. I can't "free will" myself into being excited about the prospect of tent camping.

On the other hand, if I read something tomorrow that absolutely changed my mind, I couldn't "free will" myself into not being excited.

Disagreed. According to you, if dogs had the proper "outside influences" they could build nukes and put a dog on the Moon. Or do you think those are just hoaxes?

Disagreed. You have the choice of how you react to outside influences. If a person meats a bear on the trail, how they react is up to them. Yes, experience and training help produce a better reaction. Yes, two people of the same training, one intelligent and the other a dumbass, would react differently. Still, within their range of abilities, they have a choice.

Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear – not absence of fear. Mark Twain

Acting contrary to one's emotions is a choice animals don't have.

 

[ZenMode]

Disagreed. According to you, if dogs had the proper "outside influences" they could build nukes and put a dog on the Moon. Or do you think those are just hoaxes?

Disagreed. You have the choice of how you react to outside influences.

I've never said anything like that because it's not true. Just because all conscious brains operate in a similar manner, as it relates to the impact of outside influences, doesn't mean all brains have equal capacity for learning and understanding.

If a person meats a bear on the trail, how they react is up to them. Yes, experience and training help produce a better reaction. Yes, two people of the same training, one intelligent and the other a dumbass, would react differently. Still, within their range of abilities, they have a choice.

Right, so you're saying each person will react how they'll react based on genes and life experiences/outside influences. I'm glad we're finally agreeing!

Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear – not absence of fear. Mark Twain

Ok?

Acting contrary to one's emotions is a choice animals don't have.

I've never asked animals if they're able to act contrary to fear. I have seen animals stand up to other animals, that are significantly larger than them to protect their young or owners. That could be protection instinct developed by evolution, not overcoming of fear. I don't know.

But, one's ability to act despite fear is also outside of their control. If your life experiences (and genes if there is a bravery gene) have resulted in you having such an ability, then it has. People who are utterly paralyzed by fear also have no choice in the moment.

 

[Commander Dutch]

I've never said anything like that because it's not true. Just because all conscious brains operate in a similar manner, as it relates to the impact of outside influences, doesn't mean all brains have equal capacity for learning and understanding. Right, so you're saying each person will react how they'll react based on genes and life experiences/outside influences. I'm glad we're finally agreeing!

Ok? I've never asked animals if they're able to act contrary to fear. I have seen animals stand up to other animals, that are significantly larger than them to protect their young or owners. That could be protection instinct developed by evolution, not overcoming of fear. I don't know.

But, one's ability to act despite fear is also outside of their control. If your life experiences (and genes if there is a bravery gene) have resulted in you having such an ability, then it has. People who are utterly paralyzed by fear also have no choice in the moment.

Duh. That explains why humans have free will and dogs don't. LOL

They are reacting to their instincts and experiences. They are dogs, animals who don't have a mind's eye. They only react to stimulus per their genetics and experiences. Kinda like you claim people behave.

A good line in the movie, "The Right Stuff" (I forget if it was in the book), was about the test pilots at Edwards AFB ridiculing the first 7 astronauts for not being "test pilots". They were just "spam in a can" doing a job a monkey can do.

Liaison Man: [chuckling] Exactly! Right now the President's got his own problems with the Bay of Pigs, he doesn't want the astronauts' image tarnished. Nothing these guys do is gonna be called a failure. You'd think the public would know they're just doing what monkeys have done.
Chuck Yeager: Monkeys? You think a monkey knows he's sittin' on a rocket that might explode? These astronaut boys, they know that, see? I'll tell you somethin'. Takes a special kind of man to volunteer for a suicide mission, especially when it's on TV. Ol' Gus, he did alright.

Disagreed on fear. People who have training, and the will can overcome their fear as noted in the Mark Twain quote.

 

[ZenMode]

Duh. That explains why humans have free will and dogs don't. LOL

They are reacting to their instincts and experiences. They are dogs, animals who don't have a mind's eye. They only react to stimulus per their genetics and experiences. Kinda like you claim people behave.

A good line in the movie, "The Right Stuff" (I forget if it was in the book), was about the test pilots at Edwards AFB ridiculing the first 7 astronauts for not being "test pilots". They were just "spam in a can" doing a job a monkey can do.

Disagreed on fear. People who have training, and the will can overcome their fear as noted in the Mark Twain quote.

No animals, unless they're able to think their thoughts before they think them, have free will. All animals, including humans, have DNA, natural instincts and take action based on past experiences. The only difference is that humans use complex language.

 

[Althea]

I think the author is writing in generalities. The western tradition has generally always focused on the individual self as the ultimate psychological reality. Descartes hung his hat on that premise. The Buddhist and Daoist traditions famously see attachment to the self as an illusion which obscures reality.

If you spend your day as a Buddhist monk, there ain't a lot going on.

Contrast that with sitting in traffic while commuting to work.

 

[Althea]

True.

I don't think the Eastern traditions were intending to unmoor us from a sense of grounding. It was just a different perspective on the reality of existence.

.

We're comparing ancient civilizations to fledgling ones

 

[Althea]

No animals, unless they're able to think their thoughts before they think them, have free will. All animals, including humans, have DNA, natural instincts and take action based on past experiences. The only difference is that humans use complex language.

A beaten dog will still come when called. They know they will be beaten, but they still come.

A human has much better ability to employ actual logic.

But I take your point. The foundation is very similar.

The structures built on those foundations are vastly different.

 

[Cypress]

If you spend your day as a Buddhist monk, there ain't a lot going on.

Contrast that with sitting in traffic while commuting to work.

I don't really know much about what monks do.

The truth is, your average MAGA has a vocabulary of about 200 words and only uses the parts of the brain that respond to primitive instincts like material comfort, food, grievance, resentment. They have less emotional and psychological range than a dolphin.

But the thinking people of Asia, Europe, and the Americas probably owe some of their psychological framework to a legacy of Christianity, Humanism, Buddhism, Confucianism whether they consciously realize it or not.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Duh. That explains why humans have free will and dogs don't.

Why do you think dogs don't have free will?

 

[ZenMode]

A beaten dog will still come when called. They know they will be beaten, but they still come.

A human has much better ability to employ actual logic.

But I take your point. The foundation is very similar.

The structures built on those foundations are vastly different.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of humans who will return again and again to beatings. My thinking is that physical pain, dominance with continued loyalty is due to a lack of complex language combined with a dedication to your group because lone survival didn't work well for many spaces of animal, including humans.

 

[Althea]

I don't really know much about what monks do.

The truth is, your average MAGA has a vocabulary of about 200 words and only uses the parts of the brain that respond to primitive instincts like material comfort, food, grievance, resentment. They have less emotional and psychological range than a dolphin.

But the thinking people of Asia, Europe, and the Americas probably owe some of their psychological framework to a legacy of Christianity, Humanism, Buddhism, Confucianism whether they consciously realize it or not.

There are millions of Americans who may or may not adhere to an organized religion at some level, but also study martial arts, yoga, meditation, etc..

Of those, half probably realize the benefits of what Eastern cultures offer. My limited keystrokes previously were aimed at addressing the fact that there are few absolutes unless you are a monk. In a perfect world, we get to temper our realities with the help of other cultures. I know it works for me.

 

[Althea]

Unfortunately, there are plenty of humans who will return again and again to beatings. My thinking is that physical pain, dominance with continued loyalty is due to a lack of complex language combined with a dedication to your group because lone survival didn't work well for many spaces of animal, including humans.

True. No doubt due to the belief that there is no escape. Not unlike a dog who really has no choice

 

[BidenPresident]

Christianity invented the idea of the self.

 

[Commander Dutch]

No animals, unless they're able to think their thoughts before they think them, have free will. All animals, including humans, have DNA, natural instincts and take action based on past experiences. The only difference is that humans use complex language.

No shit, Mode. That's why humans are both different and so dangerous to all other planetary lifeforms.

It's more than language, son, but you're free to believe that's the only difference.