Eastern philosophy says the self is an illusion

Cypress said:
Yes, the dictionary definition is crystal clear.

The most common use of the word universal applies to people --> Universal suffrage, universal health care, universal declaration of human rights. In normal everyday life, most people aren't talking about the laws of physics, which is the secondary definition of universal.

The concept of universalism came to use from the 18th century Enlightenment thinkers. Thomas Jefferson , Locke, the French philosophes, et al. The Enlightenment project was dedicated to the search for universal values, which exist by virtue of our humanity. That is precisely why Jefferson invoked natural rights in the Declaration, and the French revolutionaries write the universal declaration of the rights of man.
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That is not the sole or even the primary definition of "universal".
 
IlaceWords said:
That is not the sole or even the primary definition of "universal".
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Brand New to standard English lexicon, eh?

So when you hear the terms universal suffrage, universal single payer healthcare, universal conscription, universal rights you thought it applied the entire cosmos?

You can cling to wherever definition you want. I am using universal as it is understood by the Oxford dictionary and by anyone else who can interpret standard American lexicon in the context it's written.
 
IlaceWords said:
Actually there's some evidence in paleontology of animals over-grazing their ecosystems and destroying themselves.

But overall point taken. Still it doesn't change my position that humans are on a DISTRIBUTION or SPECTRUM with other animals. Yes we have the most advanced tools and technologies of any animal on the planet, but that doesn't mean we aren't just an extreme point on a larger scale.

The reason I keep hounding on this is because:

1. we CANNOT know the content of another mind if that being cannot communicate to us. To that end we simply don't know what the thoughts of large, advanced mammals like whales and elephants and dolphins actually are

2. We share the same biology and same brain structures as these mammals so there is no reason to assume they are somehow Incapable of advanced thought.


And note how earlier the discussion was around "universal" rights which you rightly pointed out are only "universal" to humans (ie NOT universal at all).

We tend to look at the animal world as somehow apart from us, as if we are not on the same spectrum as them. It's a common human chauvinism on our part.
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Animals flesh isn't infected with original sin! So their spirit and flesh are in harmony!
Humans Flesh and Spirit are constantly at odds!
"The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak"!
 
Doc Dutch said:
According to both M-W and Oxford, it is, Perry.
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The Cambridge dictionary defines universal as 'existing everywhere or involving everyone.'

-a universal truth
-Food, like sex, is a subject of almost universal interest.
-The new reforms have not met with universal approval within the party.


So collectively, that is Oxford, Webster's, and Cambridge dictionaries.
 
Cypress said:
Brand New to standard English lexicon, eh?

So when you hear the terms universal suffrage, universal single payer healthcare, universal conscription, universal rights you thought it applied the entire cosmos?

You can cling to wherever definition you want. I am using universal as it is understood by the Oxford dictionary and by anyone else who can interpret standard American lexicon in the context it's written.
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How about "universal gas constant". Does that only apply to humans? Universal joint? That only apply to humans?
 
Cypress said:
The Cambridge dictionary defines universal as 'existing everywhere or involving everyone.'

-a universal truth
-Food, like sex, is a subject of almost universal interest.
-The new reforms have not met with universal approval within the party.


So collectively, that is Oxford, Webster's, and Cambridge dictionaries.
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So you arbitrarily wall off humans from all the other animals that it is absolutely clear we are related to and you want to figure out the reason for certain "truths" which all humans seem to tend toward.

You are overly narrowing your view. When you pull the microscope back you see that these "universal truths" really only DO apply to HUMANS. But you have already arbitrarily removed humans from the larger context of all life.

When you look at all life (more of a true universal view) you see that many of the great truths are no longer applicable. So you have to go back and look at the great truths again and say "what does it all mean in the context of the larger population?

That's why I bring up animal behavior as a counter point to human behavior. These "normative" topics you like to bring up are really only things humans made up.

Filial piety has no "necessary existence" outside of our made up culture. But there's a very good reason (if you look at the larger animal world) to understand why we as humans value them because we gain an evolutionary advantage through a stable social network.

There's nothing necessarily more "deep" to understand than that.

Universal doesn't always mean just humans. Universal can be within any given set. I'm saying that you have arbitrarily selected ONE SET which is part of a LARGER SET and the analysis of the LARGER set makes the behaviors of the smaller set more comprehensible.
 
IlaceWords said:
How about "universal gas constant". Does that only apply to humans? Universal joint? That only apply to humans?
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Already addressed multiple times.

Cypress said:
The Cambridge dictionary defines universal as 'existing everywhere or involving everyone.'

-a universal truth
-Food, like sex, is a subject of almost universal interest.
-The new reforms have not met with universal approval within the party.


So collectively, that is Oxford, Webster's, and Cambridge dictionaries.
Click to expand...
 
Cypress said:
The Cambridge dictionary defines universal as 'existing everywhere or involving everyone.'

-a universal truth
-Food, like sex, is a subject of almost universal interest.
-The new reforms have not met with universal approval within the party.


So collectively, that is Oxford, Webster's, and Cambridge dictionaries.
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The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is a milestone document in the history of human rights. Drafted by representatives with different legal and cultural backgrounds from all regions of the world, the Declaration was proclaimed by the United Nations General Assembly in Paris on 10 December 1948 (General Assembly resolution 217 A) as a common standard of achievements for all peoples and all nations. It sets out, for the first time, fundamental human rights to be universally protected and it has been translated into over 500 languages. The UDHR is widely recognized as having inspired, and paved the way for, the adoption of more than seventy human rights treaties, applied today on a permanent basis at global and regional levels (all containing references to it in their preambles).

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights
 
IlaceWords said:
How about "universal gas constant". Does that only apply to humans? Universal joint? That only apply to humans?
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^^^
Typical Perry can never admit error or even meet halfway. He has to be 100% correct 100% of the time. IOW, he's obsessive about being seen as the smartest person in the room.

Where's the link to your definition, Perry?
 
Doc Dutch said:
^^^
Typical Perry can never admit error or even meet halfway. He has to be 100% correct 100% of the time. IOW, he's obsessive about being seen as the smartest person in the room.

Where's the link to your definition, Perry?
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I think both you and I indicated several dozen posts ago that universal applies to things like the laws of physics. But most people in everyday life aren't talking about physics.

If one did a word search on this board, they would find thousands of references to universal health care or universal suffrage. But you would be hard pressed to find more than few references to the universal gravitational constant.
 
Cypress said:
I think both you and I indicated several dozen posts ago that universal applies to things like the laws of physics. But most people in everyday life aren't talking about physics.

If one did a word search on this board, they would find thousands of references to universal health care or universal suffrage. But you would be hard pressed to find more than few references to the universal gravitational constant.
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Perry has an OCD problem with admitting error.
 
IlaceWords said:
So you arbitrarily wall off humans from all the other animals that it is absolutely clear we are related to and you want to figure out the reason for certain "truths" which all humans seem to tend toward.

You are overly narrowing your view. When you pull the microscope back you see that these "universal truths" really only DO apply to HUMANS. But you have already arbitrarily removed humans from the larger context of all life.

When you look at all life (more of a true universal view) you see that many of the great truths are no longer applicable. So you have to go back and look at the great truths again and say "what does it all mean in the context of the larger population?

That's why I bring up animal behavior as a counter point to human behavior. These "normative" topics you like to bring up are really only things humans made up.

Filial piety has no "necessary existence" outside of our made up culture. But there's a very good reason (if you look at the larger animal world) to understand why we as humans value them because we gain an evolutionary advantage through a stable social network.

There's nothing necessarily more "deep" to understand than that.

Universal doesn't always mean just humans. Universal can be within any given set. I'm saying that you have arbitrarily selected ONE SET which is part of a LARGER SET and the analysis of the LARGER set makes the behaviors of the smaller set more comprehensible.
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I'm still waiting for you to provide tangible evidence that orcas and narwhales have religion, create art, study theoretical mathmatics, and practice analytic philosophy.
 
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