Economic hysteria
- Thread starter FUCK THE POLICE
- Start date
There is enough blame to go around, but as someone put it the other day when GM has to spend 2k more to make a competitive car to Honda because of the headcount costs something has to give.
Ever check out executive compensation at Toyota of Honda as compared to GM? Start there.
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The Almighty
I would agree the fault lies primarily with management, but Chap is also correct in the fault of the unions. The current ratio is 3 retirees for every worker. No company can withstand that.... especially with skyrocketing healthcare costs and extended average life expectancies.
cawacko
Well-known member
From yesterday an insider's explanation of how the Big 3 got where they are:
For those of you who do not work in the manufacturing world, companies that kill it on volume are making money based on uncommon demand for their products. In the case of the Big 3, this primarily centered around SUV, truck and luxary vehicle sales (In some cases SUV's). They were improving their quality, but they mistakenly took this to mean they were also improving their manufacturing quality (manufacturing efficiency)....they were wrong. But the gravy train was running and they didn't bother to notice.
Around 1998 the UAW, while in contract negotiations with Ford and GM, decided to capitalize on this. They mistakenly thought that these profits were partly due to their labor. Just like management mistakenly thought customer demand was due to their great wisdom, labor thought it was also due to their efforts......they were both wrong. However, labor wanted its piece of the profits too, so they asked for more....and management, not wanting to upset the follow of product to the market gave in rather than risk a strike. Now, I use 1998 as a starting point but this all played out over a period of 3 years if memory serves me correctly.
The problem with all of this, of course, is what do you do once the money tree stops blooming and you didn't use enough of your profits to retool your factories and properly forecast through engineering the next round of consumer demand? Well, that is what we are seeing. "Poor Big 3, poor UAW".....Well, don't buy this load of crap for a second.
They had the money in the late 90's to do everything they want to do today and then some....and they didn't do. Instead, management and labor both decided to share the profits and spend the profits then rather than invest enough of them for today....2008. It was mismanagement on a very grand scale, that they don't have enough money to keep their companies going while they change their products to meet today's consumer demand is their own damn fault. It's management's fault and it's labor's fault, period.
For those of you who do not work in the manufacturing world, companies that kill it on volume are making money based on uncommon demand for their products. In the case of the Big 3, this primarily centered around SUV, truck and luxary vehicle sales (In some cases SUV's). They were improving their quality, but they mistakenly took this to mean they were also improving their manufacturing quality (manufacturing efficiency)....they were wrong. But the gravy train was running and they didn't bother to notice.
Around 1998 the UAW, while in contract negotiations with Ford and GM, decided to capitalize on this. They mistakenly thought that these profits were partly due to their labor. Just like management mistakenly thought customer demand was due to their great wisdom, labor thought it was also due to their efforts......they were both wrong. However, labor wanted its piece of the profits too, so they asked for more....and management, not wanting to upset the follow of product to the market gave in rather than risk a strike. Now, I use 1998 as a starting point but this all played out over a period of 3 years if memory serves me correctly.
The problem with all of this, of course, is what do you do once the money tree stops blooming and you didn't use enough of your profits to retool your factories and properly forecast through engineering the next round of consumer demand? Well, that is what we are seeing. "Poor Big 3, poor UAW".....Well, don't buy this load of crap for a second.
They had the money in the late 90's to do everything they want to do today and then some....and they didn't do. Instead, management and labor both decided to share the profits and spend the profits then rather than invest enough of them for today....2008. It was mismanagement on a very grand scale, that they don't have enough money to keep their companies going while they change their products to meet today's consumer demand is their own damn fault. It's management's fault and it's labor's fault, period.
Whose fault is that though? Retiree benefits aren't free. Current retirees decided when they were working that rather than having increased pay they would instead opt for retirement benefits through pensions and the like. That was a choice that they make back when they were workers. They could have demanded more money then. They didn't. To say that the union is at fault for opting for retirement benefits instead of more pay at the time because they (and not management) should have known that the workforce at GM would shrink by 1/3 over the next 20 years and that their retirement benefits would be unsustainable is garbage.
uscitizen
Villified User
I agree. Laborers should accept their roles as global coolies and get any grandiose ideas about their role in creating profits, and enjoying a decent lifestyle, out of their heads.
That's the American dream - Global Coolie, Will Work For Food Scraps. Thank you Massa!
cawacko
Well-known member
That was excellent 'i'll interpret this how I feel reading'. Management and the union leaders have to work together. They both have to make what they feel are best long-term decisions for who they repesent. Well it looks like managment and the unions made the best short term decisions and are now paying for it.
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
I just hate conservatives.
I'm unwilling to agree with them on anything. Maybe if there were a liberal somewhere who disagreed with this, I could change my mind.
I'm unwilling to agree with them on anything. Maybe if there were a liberal somewhere who disagreed with this, I could change my mind.
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The Almighty
What a load of crap. Tell me... why are those that work for Toyota, Nissan and Honda in the US able to earn enough to live good lifestyles and yet the workers at GM, Ford and Chrysler (who make about $29 per hour MORE in compensation than their peers) are not?
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
Maybe we should blame it on the execs who make hundreds of millions, probably more than half the payroll with the way things go down these days?
That's crazytalk!
That's crazytalk!
Citation?
Also, rather than shitting on the unionized workforce of GM and their compensation, why aren't we talking about making it easier to unionize the workers at Toyota, Nissan and Honda?
uscitizen
Villified User
I have to wonder how much bailout money the federal pension guarantee fund is going to need ?
Union workers don't make management decisions. GM is making cars no one wants to buy - their management is to blame for that.
What strikes me as ironic is how guys like you and SF think you're part of the white collar elite. The truth is, you''ve just risen to coolies-in-charge. Sort of like, lead-coolies.
but when things get bad enough, you'll go too. You're only a little less expendable than the lower-tiered coolie. But, you're still coolies.
Cancel 2016.2
The Almighty
I will go find the article that discussed it. As for unionizing the others... they have the ability to do so... they can have a vote and the workers can decide via the secret ballot as they should.
But I know...you would rather take away the secret ballot so that unions can be formed by card signatures only. All the better so that the unions can intimidate workers into signing the cards.
cawacko
Well-known member
Considering the suceess of Toyota, Nissan and Honda compared to the Big 3 why should we suggest Toyota, Nissan and Honda switch to more of the Big 3 business model?
Kamala Trump
Verified User
Yes. We should slap a tariff on imports and keep our money for ourselves. The big boogey man of PROTECTIONISM is exactly what we need now. Globalization has been the means of sucking the wealth out of america and transforming MOST americans into serfs. Sure, there are sellouts who will prosper, but they remain sellouts, worthy of scorn and disdain.