Economic hysteria

DigitalDave said:
The current business model was working for about 30 years for Ford, GM (sell big trucks at a huge profit and sell cars at a loss). Just because it's working now doesn't mean it will continue to work. If GM, Ford, and Chrysler all make a come back and are stealing market share, all while their employees are getting paid well. Well, expect Toyota and Honda to lose some of their best workers.
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True, if the big three change their business models to something successful (yes, I am laughing hard at that, unless current management is replaced) but IF they do... AND Toyota etc.. do nothing to change, then you are correct. BUT none of that says they have to unionize to make changes or to offer competitive salaries.

Again, the employees have the option of forming a union if they feel they are being unfairly compensated.
 
Superfreak said:
True, if the big three change their business models to something successful (yes, I am laughing hard at that, unless current management is replaced) but IF they do... AND Toyota etc.. do nothing to change, then you are correct. BUT none of that says they have to unionize to make changes or to offer competitive salaries.

Again, the employees have the option of forming a union if they feel they are being unfairly compensated.
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Right, I laugh at the possibility too, but it was just a hypothetical. What has worked for some time now, doesn't mean it will continue. If employees at Toyota want to unionize, they should be able to do so. Problem is, Toyota can just say 'Fuck you Americans' and move their factories if they try and unionize. Then the American consumer COULD say 'Fuck you Toyota', but I guarantee the American consumer could really give two shits about it.
 
DigitalDave said:
Right, I laugh at the possibility too, but it was just a hypothetical. What has worked for some time now, doesn't mean it will continue. If employees at Toyota want to unionize, they should be able to do so. Problem is, Toyota can just say 'Fuck you Americans' and move their factories if they try and unionize. Then the American consumer COULD say 'Fuck you Toyota', but I guarantee the American consumer could really give two shits about it.
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True, they could potentially move the plants, but the cost factor is relatively prohibitive. They are close to becoming the largest manufacturer of autos in the US (if they are not already there). That is a lot of infrastructure that they would have to move, not to mention the fact that they would then again have to pay to ship the cars into the US.

That said, the Japanese (like the Chinese) tend to think longer term. They tend to plan ten years out whereas the idiots in charge of the Big three tend to plan for the next 3 months. Something tells me the Japanese won't suddenly go stupid and start looking only to the short term.
 
Superfreak said:
but WHY would they WANT to unionize? What would unionization bring to them? If their current business model (which includes employee compensation) is WORKING... WHY would they change it? If the employees felt they were being treated unfairly, they have the OPTION to unionize.

side note...

Here is the site on the compensation differences. I know this is an economic professors blog, but the data is linked within the article.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/11/lets-assume-that-powers-in-washington.html
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They wouldn't want to unionize. It would probably drive up their labor costs. Their workers may want to unionize and while you say they have the "OPTION" to unionize (and since option is in CAPS it must be 100% true) the reality is that it isn't all that easy even if 51% of the workers wanted to unionize.

As for the data, it doesn't support what you claimed. To refresh your memory you claimed that workers at the Big 3 make $29 more in total compensation than their peers at Toyota. That's just not true. While it may have once been true that total labor cost (which includes pension benefits for retirees, healthcare for retirees and similar "legacy costs") is $29 more at GM than at Toyota I don't believe that is the case anymore based since the concession the union has recently made. Additionally, the legacy costs are not going to current workers.
 
Darla said:
Union workers don't make management decisions. GM is making cars no one wants to buy - their management is to blame for that.

What strikes me as ironic is how guys like you and SF think you're part of the white collar elite. The truth is, you''ve just risen to coolies-in-charge. Sort of like, lead-coolies.

but when things get bad enough, you'll go too. You're only a little less expendable than the lower-tiered coolie. But, you're still coolies.
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Isn't it disturbing how outraged the right gets at those dumbass blue-collar workers, having the gall to actually demand a living wage? And BENEFITS!? FUCKING HEALTH BENEFITS!? This is unamerican!

Then they took a look at the execs making 50% of the payroll and congratulate them on their hard work.
 
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Watermark said:
The big 3 DO NOT make what sales. Toyota is making what sells - small, energy efficient cars.
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Thank you but I am aware of that. I said the Big 3 needs to make what sells. I'm not holding them back which goes back to what I originally posted about how the Big 3 didn't retool when they had the chance and just rode out the SUV wave. No big surprise they are where they are today.
 
cawacko said:
Thank you but I am aware of that. I said the Big 3 needs to make what sells. I'm not holding them back which goes back to what I originally posted about how the Big 3 didn't retool when they had the chance and just rode out the SUV wave. No big surprise they are where they are today.
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Oh.

I swear I read that you said that they made what sales.
 
Watermark said:
It's true!

:crybaby:
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lol.. here, have a beer :clink:

Now take that ugly black trench coat off and dress in some normal shit. It doesn't have to be American Eagle, Abercrombie, or Hollister. Just a Wal-mart T-shirt will do, preferably with a Nazi logo you marxist cumbucket, so we all know you are a recovering douchebag.
 
Superfreak said:
but WHY would they WANT to unionize? What would unionization bring to them? If their current business model (which includes employee compensation) is WORKING... WHY would they change it? If the employees felt they were being treated unfairly, they have the OPTION to unionize.

side note...

Here is the site on the compensation differences. I know this is an economic professors blog, but the data is linked within the article.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/11/lets-assume-that-powers-in-washington.html
Click to expand...


Here is a more detailed response to the $70 an hour claim that I made yesterday with much the same thrust:

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=1026e955-541c-4aa6-bcf2-56dfc3323682
 
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