Education

I think it's possible. Negotiated base rates with incentives for better performance and training in measurable objective metrics. In my experience union hostility towards so-called merit pay is that how "merit" is determined isn't wet out in objective standards. Rather, the employer wants full discretion to make so-called merit determinations. Developing an objective system for determining merit is the key.

We had a ballot measure in California in 2006 which would made it a year or two longer before teachers got tenure and made it easier to dismiss poor teachers. Well that did not get the teachers union support and was shot down by the voters. As Cypress said on here he felt it was a union busting effort by the GOP and had nothing to do with actually trying to help kids in school or the education system.

That is the exact mindset we face in attempting to make changes in our education structure.
 
I think it's possible. Negotiated base rates with incentives for better performance and training in measurable objective metrics. In my experience union hostility towards so-called merit pay is that how "merit" is determined isn't wet out in objective standards. Rather, the employer wants full discretion to make so-called merit determinations. Developing an objective system for determining merit is the key.

You MIGHT be able to get them to tie raises to performance, however they will still want raises based on nothing more than seniority and you want get them to allow for easier dismissal. So poor performance will continue to be rewarded, while good performance will be rewarded more. That will not help a whole lot.
 
Because for several decades we've heard 'we need more money for education' and our education system will improve. That is what we have tried and we have seen no marked improvment which goes to show it is more than just money that the education needs.



The profit here is an educated crop of workers ready to deal with a complicated world and able to know enough about the changing situations that surrounds them that they dont fall prey to say subprime preditory lending( remember you insist they should not have any legislative protection from the fuckwads in the markets who dont want to make a fair profit but want to screw people) and have skills needed by the market.

The profit is constantly pushed by the fact that there are increasing numbers of these vessels( meaning the number of children we need to educate). They need a place to process these vessels and it needs to grow larger as the numbers increase. The properties need upkeep and improvements. New materials are constantly being needed , updated replaced.

There is just so little belief in kids anymore and we house them like criminals with ever bigger and bigger campuses where they increasingly feel like holding cells instead of places were they gain something. No respect from an army of adminstrators who have no idea who the kid is yet hold complete power over their lives. We have turned our schools in teach to the test dungeons where they are made to feel like crinimals because no one knows them as people. No one knows their strengths, weaknesses, their pain and their ability to add to their communities.

They are people and when we realize that the way to teach them to excell is to inspire them to love knowledge. You teach them what it has to do with their lives and how it can improve them and the world arround them.

President O told you how you do that and you did not listen. Its through Art , Music , Dance, poetry and you dont teach to the test you teach to the child.



Now you can shut down the factory if you want but them all you get are a mass population of people with no hope of ever seeing anything but poverty forever.

I think that that is exactly what the current owners of the Republican party wants.
 
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you do both striggay
pay teachers $75,000 starting and you'll be flooded with new applicants, weed out the turds and them grade them 1 to 5 and match that with % in annual raises.

And what I said here and in the cop thread is that the second part is key. Without it the first is pretty worthless. You don't get that becasue you are a fucking retard.
 
The profit here is an educated crop of workers ready to deal with a complicated world and able to know enough about the changing situations that surrounds them that they dont fall prey to say subprime preditory lending( remember you insist they should not have any legislative protection from the fuckwads in the markets who dont want to make a fair profit but want to screw people) and have skills needed by the market.

The profit is constantly pushed by the fact that there are increasing numbers of these vessels( meaning the number of children we need to educate). They need a place to process these vessels and it needs to grow larger as the numbers increase. The properties need upkeep and improvements. New materials are constantly being needed , updated replaced.

There is just so little belief in kids anymore and we house them like criminals with ever bigger and bigger campuses where they increasingly feel like holding cells instead of places were they gain something. No respect from an army of adminstrators who have no idea who the kid is yet hold complete power over their lives. We have turned our schools in teach to the test dungeons where they are made to feel like crinimals because no one knows them as people. No one knows their strengths, weaknesses, their pain and their ability to add to their communities.

They are people and when we realize that the way to teach them to excell is to inspire them to love knowledge. You teach them what it has to do with their lives and how it can improve them and the world arround them.

President O told you how you do that and you did not listen. Its through Art , Music , Dance, poetry and you dont teach to the test you teach to the child.



Now you can shut down the factory if you want but them all you get are a mass population of people with no hope of ever seeing anything but poverty forever.

I think that that is exactly what the current owners of the Republican party wants.

God, you are such a shallow minded partisan! All your gobbledy gook about the education system is meaningless emotional crap. It does not focus on any of the actual problems (well, you did mention teach to the test, but we were doing that before NCLB) and there is no solution offered other than vote Democrat.

Look, even the neocon pricks want good education. You are not going to get anywhere with stupid conspiracy theories.
 
God, you are such a shallow minded partisan! All your gobbledy gook about the education system is meaningless emotional crap. It does not focus on any of the actual problems (well, you did mention teach to the test, but we were doing that before NCLB) and there is no solution offered other than vote Democrat.

Look, even the neocon pricks want good education. You are not going to get anywhere with stupid conspiracy theories.

Reading her post was about 20 seconds I'll never get back. Exactly what you said, there was nothing substantive. I do understand Desh, vote Democrat and the world will be fine.

The irony of her post is while she is spouting this baseless rhetoric there are real kids in failing schools now that need real solutions other than vote for my political party because I'm a partisan. Then she accusses others of not caring.
 
Thanks for the link. I tried his website but the Education link looks like it was thrown up there as an afterthought and some intern strung a bunch of platitudes together to take up space. No real details/

As for "my solution," how the fuck do you know what "my solution" is? You're insufferable.

Finally, is McCain proposing to abolish the DoE as your comment suggests. I hadn't heard that, but by all means he should make that more prominent in his stump speeches or on his website. I'm sure folks would rally in support for that.
Well, yes "insufferable"...

LOL. You propound that changing the system is not a solution as I propound. Therefore your solution must be to keep the status quo.

As for McCain proposing that, no. It was a sideline comment basically showing how I don't think Presidential solutions to Education are constitutional.
 
God, you are such a shallow minded partisan! All your gobbledy gook about the education system is meaningless emotional crap. It does not focus on any of the actual problems (well, you did mention teach to the test, but we were doing that before NCLB) and there is no solution offered other than vote Democrat.

Look, even the neocon pricks want good education. You are not going to get anywhere with stupid conspiracy theories.


Smaller schools ,lower class sizes, Art , Music, teachers who dont have to feel like what they do menas nothing to our society because they are not willing to pay them for what they are worth in the market. Schools without broken windows and classrooms not made out of plywood.

Its called paying for the result we want instead of pretending that is just not doable.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/
 
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Smaller schools ,lower class sizes, Art , Music, teachers who dont have to feel like what they do menas nothing to our society because they are not willing to pay them for what they are worth in the market. Schools without broken windows and classrooms not made out of plywood.

Its called paying for the result we want instead of pretending that is just not doable.

So once again your solution is more money. We don't pay teachers "market" salaries because the union bases your pay on how many years you've taught not how good you are.
 
i think a teacher makes like 60K in MA for 1500hours (180 days) of work. typically salary is based on 2000 hours. So a teacher working corporate calender would make 80K.
 
i think a teacher makes like 60K in MA for 1500hours (180 days) of work. typically salary is based on 2000 hours. So a teacher working corporate calender would make 80K.
Some already do. I have a coworker who makes less than his wife who teaches middle school. And we don't make peanuts here.
 
The Union does not set the starting teacher pay now does it?

Again, increasing base pay is not going to improve performance. It might increase the quality of applicants somewhat. That's pretty worthless, since it just means a better quality of resumes will be received. Better performance will come through motivating (pay is part of that, but so is firing non performers) and evaluating on the job.
 
The Union does not set the starting teacher pay now does it?
Yes, it is very instrumental in setting that pay. The union has worked to backend most of their compensation. The longer you stay the more you get paid. If you do not believe that their contract negotiations are not instrumental in deciding how that money is spent then you just ignore reality as it passes around you.
 
from a teacher's perspective

In order to base pay on performance in education there has to be a way to measure the performance...ie standardized testing. The problem with this is that it is way too subjective. There would have to be an outside source that measures the performance...something at the state or federal level. And what of the teachers who teach children who DON'T take the tests? Special Ed teachers work with children who are exempt so there would have to be another federal/state developed method of measuring their performance. And what about the teachers of electives (music, arts, athletics)? How do you base pay on performance there, and who will be THAT judge? You can't expect administrators to even know where those classrooms are, much less decide whether the teacher deserves a pay increase based on performance. The logistics of all this say that it will NEVER happen. The unions will see to it that it doesn't.
 
rstringtur, you may be the dumbest hack on the board
I higher caliber of application may help somewhat. BHAHAHAHHAH!!!
what kind of shit job do you do if your not embarrassed to say?
 
I watched all of Obama's speech last night and had the biggest reaction when started speaking about education. As an aside I'm referencing Obama here but what he said was pretty similar to what almost all politicians, Republicans and Democrats, say which is a lot of nothing. So I'm not trying to single out Obama.

He made a jab at NCLB with a 'don't teach to the test comment'. Otherwise he said we need higher standards, a typical political refrain, but what does that mean? How do you quanifty 'higher standards'? He said good teachers need to make more money but then he said he would raise all teachers salaries. Then he said we need more family involvement which is true.

Many people agree education is one of the top priorities for us as a nation yet we get the same canned speech from each politician with almost always the same talking points. And since there is no easy to way to measure or judge students performance outside test results we seem to be stuck with the status quo year after year regardless of what each new crop of politicians say.

In a two party system, the less you say, the more likely you are to win.
 
Yes, it is very instrumental in setting that pay. The union has worked to backend most of their compensation. The longer you stay the more you get paid. If you do not believe that their contract negotiations are not instrumental in deciding how that money is spent then you just ignore reality as it passes around you.


Damo what is the starting salary for a teacher state by state?

Who desides the starting teacher pay in each state?
 
In order to base pay on performance in education there has to be a way to measure the performance...ie standardized testing. The problem with this is that it is way too subjective. There would have to be an outside source that measures the performance...something at the state or federal level. And what of the teachers who teach children who DON'T take the tests? Special Ed teachers work with children who are exempt so there would have to be another federal/state developed method of measuring their performance. And what about the teachers of electives (music, arts, athletics)? How do you base pay on performance there, and who will be THAT judge? You can't expect administrators to even know where those classrooms are, much less decide whether the teacher deserves a pay increase based on performance. The logistics of all this say that it will NEVER happen. The unions will see to it that it doesn't.

im an analyst. I can have the same analyst job title at hundreds of different companies that vary in roles and responsibilities similar to a music teacher versus and English teacher. I am paid based on performance. Performance is specific to my role.. not grading me versus all the other analysts in my state.

usually the way it works is your graded 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5. 3 being meets requirements, 4 exceeds, 2, partially meets... etc. (a review) its all subjective. they try to categorize it as much as they can and in various ways.
there is a compensation raise pool each year and those that get better reviews get a higher percent of the raise.

There is no union for analysts. Why cant teachers have same kind of grading system?
 
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