Family Value Conservatives: Sarah Palin's Daughter Pregnant at 17..and Not married...

You are like most Repubs and have no fucking reading comprehension. They said there is no method for determining fertilization in vivo. They did not say there is no method for determining in vivo fertilizations. Different things.

Does it change the fact that your numbers wide variances simply illustrates what SWAG they truly are?

Does it change the fact that a unique life begins when the egg cell and sperm cell combine?

Since you seem so confused, I will help you out... the answer to both of the above is of course... NO.
 
You are like most Repubs and have no fucking reading comprehension. They said there is no method for determining fertilization in vivo. They did not say there is no method for determining in vivo fertilizations. Different things.
Right. There is no method to prove in vivo fertilization has taken place. There is no test for it. But somehow they know how many in vivo fertilizations have taken place in their studies? From where did they derive that number if there is no way to test for in vivo fertilizations?

You are the one with comprehension problems. In fact if you read the study itself, they do not even know the number of fertilized ova that failed to attach. The only REAL numbers they have is how many fertilizations were ATTEMPTED in the fertility clinic, and how many pregnancies resulted. All else is pure guesswork. They ASSUME that a certain number of attempts at fertilization were successful, but did not result in pregnancy based on IN VITRO results of artificial fertilization techniques.

Of course they have ZERO evidence that allows them to use in vitro results for in vivo analysis. But since the purpose is to somehow justify purposely killing unborn children, who gives a shit?
 
Right. There is no method to prove in vivo fertilization has taken place. There is no test for it. But somehow they know how many in vivo fertilizations have taken place in their studies? From where did they derive that number if there is no way to test for in vivo fertilizations?

You are the one with comprehension problems. In fact if you read the study itself, they do not even know the number of fertilized ova that failed to attach. The only REAL numbers they have is how many fertilizations were ATTEMPTED in the fertility clinic, and how many pregnancies resulted. All else is pure guesswork. They ASSUME that a certain number of attempts at fertilization were successful, but did not result in pregnancy based on IN VITRO results of artificial fertilization techniques.

Of course they have ZERO evidence that allows them to use in vitro results for in vivo analysis. But since the purpose is to somehow justify purposely killing unborn children, who gives a shit?

Also, would the number of fertilized eggs that are expelled naturally by the body be the same for a woman who was unable to get pregnant naturally as it would for the average woman?

If that study is the basis for your info, its pretty worthless info.
 
Also, would the number of fertilized eggs that are expelled naturally by the body be the same for a woman who was unable to get pregnant naturally as it would for the average woman?

If that study is the basis for your info, its pretty worthless info.
It's not MY study. It's a SWAG number pulled out of some pseudo-scientists' asses to defend legalized abortion.

Equating fertility clinic numbers (even if they had valid ones) to the general population was one of my earlier critiques.
 
It's not MY study. It's a SWAG number pulled out of some pseudo-scientists' asses to defend legalized abortion.

Equating fertility clinic numbers (even if they had valid ones) to the general population was one of my earlier critiques.

My apologies, GoodLuck. I quoted you and then critiqued RString's information. I should have been more clear.

Sorry bout that.
 
WOW, seventeen...I am glad it never happened to me! It happens when you don't teach your children about birth control!

Isn't it ironic that those most at risk for having both unwanted pregnancies and abortions are girls from conservative families who don't teach them about birth control.
 
Isn't it ironic that those most at risk for having both unwanted pregnancies and abortions are girls from conservative families who don't teach them about birth control.

Do you actually think that Palin's daughter didn't know what causes babies or how to prevent them?

Do you actually believe that this girl is pregnant because she didn't know about contraceptives?

Or could it be, like so many other teens, that they took a risk?
 
Some more sources. And I think that is enough as you folks offer nothing than SWAG that it is a SWAG.

New England Journal of Medicine
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/3/207

Third, defenders of in vitro fertilization point out that embryo loss in assisted reproduction is less frequent than in natural pregnancy, in which more than half of all fertilized eggs either fail to implant or are otherwise lost.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/08/2/gr080207.html

Between one-third and one-half of all fertilized eggs never fully implant. A pregnancy is considered to be established only after implantation is complete.
 
It's not MY study. It's a SWAG number pulled out of some pseudo-scientists' asses to defend legalized abortion.

Equating fertility clinic numbers (even if they had valid ones) to the general population was one of my earlier critiques.

That was only the first source, try again.

New England Journal of Medicine are pseudo-scientists? Okay, you have proven your credibility.
 
Some more sources. And I think that is enough as you folks offer nothing than SWAG that it is a SWAG.

New England Journal of Medicine
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/351/3/207

Third, defenders of in vitro fertilization point out that embryo loss in assisted reproduction is less frequent than in natural pregnancy, in which more than half of all fertilized eggs either fail to implant or are otherwise lost.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/08/2/gr080207.html

Between one-third and one-half of all fertilized eggs never fully implant. A pregnancy is considered to be established only after implantation is complete.
LOL You give references to a paper arguing the ethics of embryonic stem cell research, and another talking about the legal ramifications of defining pregnancy as proof of your figures on implantation percentages?

Give it up, son. Your scientific comprehension is obviously NOT up to the task of proving your point.

What is your point anyway?

Oh, yea, since people die anyway, it is OK to kill them.
 
LOL You give references to a paper arguing the ethics of embryonic stem cell research, and another talking about the legal ramifications of defining pregnancy as proof of your figures on implantation percentages?

Give it up, son. Your scientific comprehension is obviously NOT up to the task of proving your point.

What is your point anyway?

Oh, yea, since people die anyway, it is OK to kill them.

Lets start with conservatives and their babies.
 
LOL You give references to a paper arguing the ethics of embryonic stem cell research, and another talking about the legal ramifications of defining pregnancy as proof of your figures on implantation percentages?

Give it up, son. Your scientific comprehension is obviously NOT up to the task of proving your point.

I can't find any studies, but that does not mean they do not exist. You have sources, the ACOG and the Department of Government Harvard University. Do what you want with them, but you offer absolutely nothing back your assertion of SWAG.

What is your point anyway?

Oh, yea, since people die anyway, it is OK to kill them.

No, that was clearly never the point. You chose to argue the numbers. The point has been we do not, and never have, treat the "deaths" of fertilized eggs as deaths.

Born people die and we mourn them in ritual, investigate why they died and go through certain legal motions to settle their affairs. Even with miscarriages, this is true. But with fertilized eggs? That would be absurd. Those who want to legally define life at conception/fertilization to deny contraception that blocks implantation are hypocritical to evade these other dissimilarities in our treatment of life.
 
I can't find any studies, but that does not mean they do not exist. You have sources, the ACOG and the Department of Government Harvard University. Do what you want with them, but you offer absolutely nothing back your assertion of SWAG.
I already debunked your sources. The study used poor techniques and insupportable assumptions to arrive at their conclusions. (Which is why the range is so wide) There is no way to determine a number of fertilized ova in vivo because there is no test for in vivo fertilization. So they used the figures for in VITRO fertilization, then fudged because they know in vitro is different.

As I pointed out, the only REAL, verifiable and repeatable data they have is the number of ATTEMPTED fertilizations using artificial methods on women who have trouble getting pregnant. And they have the number of resulting pregnancies.

It is not valid science to use in vitro fertilization rates to estimate in vivo fertilization rates. t is not valid science to use figures derived from a population undergoing medical treatment to enhance pregnancy, and apply those figures to the general population.

In conclusion - arrived at through careful analysis of the study referenced - the claims your refer to are SWAG.

And what is the purpose of pointing out we do not hold ceremony over the death of a fertilized ovum? We have no test for iin vitro fertilization, therefore there is no way to know if a fertilized ovum failed to implant or not. Can't regret a death you do not know if it occurred or not.

And you fucking well know what you intend to imply with your argument. You are intending to defend legal abortion to include abortive contraception methods.
 
I already debunked your sources. The study used poor techniques and insupportable assumptions to arrive at their conclusions. (Which is why the range is so wide) There is no way to determine a number of fertilized ova in vivo because there is no test for in vivo fertilization. So they used the figures for in VITRO fertilization, then fudged because they know in vitro is different.

I already told you there is a difference between saying that "there is no test for in vivo fertilization" and saying "there is no test for fertilization in vivo." The first implies a test to determine whether fertilization occurred in the woman, the other implies a test to determine whether fertilization has occurred while the egg is within the woman.

You did not debunk shit. You are a retard that did not understand what you read and still fail to after I pointed out your mistake.

And you fucking well know what you intend to imply with your argument. You are intending to defend legal abortion to include abortive contraception methods.

I am defending contraception that prevents implantation. No abortion can occur prior to implantation.

Yes, by pointing out the absurdity of treating a fertilized egg as life and the hypocrisy of demanding the application of it in arbitrarily chosen instances only.
 
I already told you there is a difference between saying that "there is no test for in vivo fertilization" and saying "there is no test for fertilization in vivo." The first implies a test to determine whether fertilization occurred in the woman, the other implies a test to determine whether fertilization has occurred while the egg is within the woman.

You did not debunk shit. You are a retard that did not understand what you read and still fail to after I pointed out your mistake.
Wrong. You are the one who does not understand. There is no way to test whether an ovum has been fertilized in vivo, UNLESS pregnancy (ie:implantation) occurs as a result. There are no tests ZERO, none, nada, to substantiate the claim to know the number of ova fertilized in vivo in relation to the number of resulting pregnancies.

If you'd dug a little deeper and actually found the results of the studies you posted so hastily, you would have read that the numbers derived for in vivo fertilizations were derived (unscientifically) from a study of successful in vitro fertilization rates. Try reading your own fucking references before trying to claim an understanding of what the fuck they mean.

And you do nothing to refute the fact that a study on women who have trouble getting pregnant can in no way be applied to the general population.

(Or do I forget all you want is numbers to claim (falsely) that preventing implantation is not an abortive contraception method - even if those numbers are a lie.)

I am defending contraception that prevents implantation. No abortion can occur prior to implantation.

Yes, by pointing out the absurdity of treating a fertilized egg as life and the hypocrisy of demanding the application of it in arbitrarily chosen instances only.
And again, you cannot comprehend the very references you use to defend your position. You keep harping on the medical definition of the beginning of PREGNANCY. What you fail to address is the biological FACT that LIFE begins with successful fertilization of the ovum. Interfering with the implantation of the ovum is literally the deliberate action of one human being to terminate the life of another. Even were your figures true (which you cannot substantiate with real science) the fact that some do not implant through natural forces in no way justifies that one can deliberately cause what happens sometimes naturally.

When a human's heart stops beating and cannot be restarted, it is considered a natural death.

UNLESS, the human's heart stops beating because someone punched a hole in it (shooting, knifing, etc.) Then it is defined as a homicide.

Now, if the persons whose heart was stopped was a criminal in the act of trying to kill a cop, and the cop shot him first, then the homicide is considered justified.


Now we want to to talk about the unborn in the earliest stages of development? If a fertilized egg fails to implant (which by that time has probably reached the blastocyst stage of development) from natural (ie: non-man made) causes, then it is a natural death. However, since there is no test available to determine when or how often natural causes of non-implantation occur, there is no manner in which we can celebrate/regret such occurances.

However, when a fertilized ovum (blastocyst) fails to implant because of HUMAN INTERFERENCE, then it is homicide.

Justify the homicide.
 
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Wrong. You are the one who does not understand. There is no way to test whether an ovum has been fertilized in vivo, UNLESS pregnancy (ie:implantation) occurs as a result. There are no tests ZERO, none, nada, to substantiate the claim to know the number of ova fertilized in vivo in relation to the number of resulting pregnancies.

Alright, fine, we'll go your way. Then you can't even prove the contraceptive effectively stops implantation or that fertility ever occurred. How the fuck you going to prove a homicide?
 
If you are right that there is no way test for fertilization at all (I had assumed they could check the menses, but maybe I am wrong) there is no way to tell whether a contraceptive prevents implantation and you have absolutely no basis for outlawing any of them.

Checkmate.
 
If you are right that there is no way test for fertilization at all (I had assumed they could check the menses, but maybe I am wrong) there is no way to tell whether a contraceptive prevents implantation and you have absolutely no basis for outlawing any of them.

Checkmate.
You as stupid as they come.

First menses is only altered when implantation occurs. Thus my statement that the only way to test for in vivo fertilization is to check for pregnancy.


Second, if a medical treatment prevents pregnancy by preventing implantation, it is morally corrupt to allow that type of contraceptive to be used. From a single case by case POV, no criminal action (assuminng our society were mature enough to recognize killing any human without justification is wrong) could be proven. OTOH, probability dictates that eventually one of those types of contraception would, indeed, kill a human by preventing implantation. In such a case, the people who make, and the people who consume for the purpose of contraception would fall under the heading of conspiracy to commit homicide. (Ie: taking actions they know will ultimately result in a homicide.) Conspiracy to commit, in most states, carries the same consequences as the action itself.

So, justify the homicide. Because if it is not justified, it is murder.
 
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