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The Almighty
So does drilling in ANWAR and the Gulf.... and that way people get to eat.
Food Riots
- Thread starter LadyT
- Start date
So does drilling in ANWAR and the Gulf.... and that way people get to eat.
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The Almighty
Top.... you have to look at grain production on the whole vs. increase in demand for grain on the whole. Despite record production of grain, demand outweighed supply. There is only so much land available for production... barring deforestation. The problem lies in the amount of grain being used for ethanol. As Dave mentioned, ethanol is not the way to go.... especially grain based. If they can get cellulosic ethanol on-line efficiently, then great. But bottom line is that we need to cease using grain for ethanol production.
Food AND fuel?!! Now you are just dreaming! We must sacrifice, humanity is bad and must hurt to save itself from... well... itself.
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The Almighty
While it certainly provides a wake up call and will help push us in that direction, if you do so at the expense of others being able to eat... then no, it is not the way to go.
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The Almighty
While I agree grain prices will continue to rise and thus Aggs are a good place to invest, you are kidding yourself if you think they can wave a magic wand and suddenly produce more grain..... especially given the fact that demand continues to skyrocket. We cannot keep pace unless we do one of two things in the short run....
1) Cut down forests so that we have more land to farm
2) Cease using grain for ethanol production.
Or 3, bring back the small family farm.
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The Almighty
Cellulosic Ethanol production is done by using things like corn stover, switchgrass, woodchips etc... to produce ethanol. It is not as easy as using grain, but it is done using non-food items.
The hinderance to producing more is available land is not abundant enough to keep up with demand. China and India alone will increase demand to the point of this continuing to be a problem. Because BOTH are seeing increases in human consumption as well as ethanol production.
The other problem with ethanol is that it takes more energy to make it than the end product produces. It is a net loser in energy at this time.
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The Almighty
From what I have heard on the costs of fertilizer and fuel, it is not typically economical for the small family farmer to produce. This is simply what I have heard, I am not positive on this.
grass is an option?
Topspin
Verified User
freak you have a compulsive need to stand up for the economic illiterate.
Please don't embarass yourself further, I mention Iowa and corn and the early primary making your point useless.
Also, do not be foolish enough to bet me wheat production won't go way up following a huge increase in price.
Please don't embarass yourself further, I mention Iowa and corn and the early primary making your point useless.
Also, do not be foolish enough to bet me wheat production won't go way up following a huge increase in price.
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The Almighty
Top.... as I said, I too think production will increase along with prices. The problem top is that DEMAND is also increasing and will ALSO continue to increase. Here is a tip from Captain Obvious... they do not make land anymore. Which is why countries like Brazil are cutting down forests to produce more farm land.
Side note... I have been invested in Aggs for several years. This was inevitable given the complete ignorance of those who think we can simply wave a wand and produce however much grain we want.
Here is a little food for thought toppy.... It takes six pounds of grain for every pound of beef consumed in the world. As China continues to urbanize and gain wealth, it is consuming more and more beef. It became a net importer of grain for the first time last year and is expected to be an even bigger importer this year. They do not have any more land to farm top.
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The Almighty
Side note... what the hell does a primary have to do with worldwide grain production? Not to mention ONE state. Here is another piece of info for you toppy.... Iowa is not the sole producer of grain in the world.
Topspin
Verified User
dude we produce a fuel that's actually efficient, I know all about the waiste in ethanol.
Oncelor was trying to argue production wouldn't go up with price.
Not sure China is out of farmland, they have way more land unoccupied than they have lived in. They are pretty smart and will figure out how to increase production.
Oncelor was trying to argue production wouldn't go up with price.
Not sure China is out of farmland, they have way more land unoccupied than they have lived in. They are pretty smart and will figure out how to increase production.
How much grain is used to feed cattle as compared to how much grain is used in ethanol production? What is the energy return on each? General environmental impact of each?
Further, given the biofuels actually serve to compliment fossil fuels that are key to food production, what is the positive impact of biofuels on the productions costs as compared to the increase demand caused by biofuel production?
I don't think biofules are the big boogeyman here.
Having said that. This is indeed problematic, at least for Bangladeshis and other poor folks, not the American fat cats with their fancy color TVs:
Further, given the biofuels actually serve to compliment fossil fuels that are key to food production, what is the positive impact of biofuels on the productions costs as compared to the increase demand caused by biofuel production?
I don't think biofules are the big boogeyman here.
Having said that. This is indeed problematic, at least for Bangladeshis and other poor folks, not the American fat cats with their fancy color TVs:
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The Almighty
Really top? If they are so smart they can figure it out.... why is it they became a net importer? The Chinese are well known for their long term thinking. They have seen this coming for a long time. As have we. Yet they still saw demand outpace their supply.
Yes, in the future they will continue to expand their infrastructure and that may allow for more of their land to be farmed. But again, you have to realize that it is the pace of increased production compared to increased demand that matters. I do think production will continue to increase.... just not fast enough to keep up with demand.
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The Almighty
How much grain is used to feed cattle as compared to how much grain is used in ethanol production? What is the energy return on each? General environmental impact of each?
Further, given the biofuels actually serve to compliment fossil fuels that are key to food production, what is the positive impact of biofuels on the productions costs as compared to the increase demand caused by biofuel production?
I don't think biofules are the big boogeyman here.
Having said that. This is indeed problematic, at least for Bangladeshis and other poor folks, not the American fat cats with their fancy color TVs:
I do not know the answer to how much grain is used to produce ethanol. From what I have read it takes approximately six pounds of grain to produce a pound of beef. It is also my understanding that ethanol currently takes more energy to produce than the end product produces. Thus it is a net loser in energy.... thus on that merit alone we should discontinue.
here is an interesting site.... note.... I just saw it and have not looked to closely at it, thus take with a grain of salt
http://www.ncga.com/worldofcorn/2007/production1.asp
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The Almighty
Dung.... agg secretary just stated that about 15% of our corn goes into ethanol production.... and we are the largest producer of corn in the world.