Free will and original sin

I suppose that, under any belief system, people notice that humans make wonderful plans and then balls them up because of some failing in them. Original sin was one way of expressing this, and I don't think the concept 'free will' will survive much close examination of human behaviour. Our hands are moving, so to speak, long before we come to any decision.
 
Concart said:
Love the show, just finished season 3. It's one I have to watch without my wife. She can't get past the idea that it's a show about robots. Which it absolutely is not. Our ven diagram has a pretty large intersection, but hers doesn't include this....... and mine doesn't include 90 day fiance :).
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ROFL. Mine neither. We do watch some shows together, but I don't share her love for TLC "reality" shows and she's not into SF, Horror or war.

The Big Three; Heinlein, Asimov and Clarke, plus Bradbury all wrote stories questioning what is "human" and self-awareness in other creatures and machines on the level of human beings.
 
Penderyn said:
I suppose that, under any belief system, people notice that humans make wonderful plans and then balls them up because of some failing in them. Original sin was one way of expressing this, and I don't think the concept 'free will' will survive much close examination of human behaviour. Our hands are moving, so to speak, long before we come to any decision.
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It's possible free will is an illusion, and that we live in a deterministic reality. Smarter people than me have to sort it out.
 
Cypress said:
It's possible free will is an illusion, and that we live in a deterministic reality. Smarter people than me have to sort it out.
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If we do live in a deterministic reality, then everything thought about "God" is a lie. We're just meat robots operating with the programming of a god, gods or random chance.
 
Concart said:
All religions are the product of man's unique ability to recognize his mortality and find an out. Throughout history, religious beliefs have been driven by ignorance. We no longer believe an eclipse is caused by a dragon eating the sun. Current religious beliefs when viewed as history will prove just as ignorant. Spirituality is, IMHO, not religion. Very different things. All religious dogma is BS.
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I do not think it is limited to conventional religious thought. Plato, the pagan, made the immortal soul one of the cornerstones of his philosophy.

I might be wrong about this, but the transition to conventional religion during the Axial Age was first and foremost humanity's way of coming to terms with individuality and a personal code of ethics - a search for a meaning to this life on a personal level. The Brahmanistic, Vedic, and Confucian traditions certainly did not concern themselves with the salvation of a personal soul.
 
Cypress said:
Determinism kind of freaks me out too
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Determinism requires a "god" or supernatural power to control events. I disagree with it. The only way it could be logically explained, IMO, is through the Fourth Dimension AKA Time. People see Time like a 35mm movie: one frame at a time and only moving forward. The reality is that all time exists simultaneously like looking at the entire 35mm movie as it sits in a can.

In that respect, our "fates" are already "determined" because our deaths and life events would be known to anything that can view it in the Fourth Dimension. That said, the viewer can't make a person's life go one way or another. The viewer is just an observer and not in control of that person's fate or life events.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
ROFL. Mine neither. We do watch some shows together, but I don't share her love for TLC "reality" shows and she's not into SF, Horror or war.

The Big Three; Heinlein, Asimov and Clarke, plus Bradbury all wrote stories questioning what is "human" and self-awareness in other creatures and machines on the level of human beings.
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We watch 'The Expanse' together. I win :) Great authors. Thumbs up.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Another great show but I haven't seen the latest season....haven't finished Westworld either.
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I'm only on Season three of the Expanse, but it was a very pleasant surprise. Great characters, and the political aspects are really well done. Characters are not cliche. Sorry for the diversion, back on topic!!
 
jacksonsprat22 said:
Original Sin by itself is enough to ignore Christianity.
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Teaching your children that they are born "bad" and need to believe in a mythological figure to avoid damnation is akin to child abuse, IMO. Children must be taught moral behavior, of course. But that can be done w/o loading them with guilt over a false belief.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed. Given that, it doesn't make sense for God to create an entire universe of rules then break those rules for a small group of people who have "found Jesus" or kneel at their bed and pray for a new bicycle.
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Or as I said to my Mom, who was a devout Xtian and taught Sunday School, when I was 9 or 10: "Why would God make so many people and then have most of them go to hell because they didn't know about Jesus?" I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to that question, and therefore have found my own path to what I consider to be the Divine.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Teaching your children that they are born "bad" and need to believe in a mythological figure to avoid damnation is akin to child abuse, IMO. Children must be taught moral behavior, of course. But that can be done w/o loading them with guilt over a false belief.
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I was taught that. Took me a very long time to see how horrible and...unchristian the dogma is. Why does God hate me?!
 
jacksonsprat22 said:
I was taught that. Took me a very long time to see how horrible and...unchristian the dogma is. Why does God hate me?!
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:~( How did you work past that?

I was raised Lutheran. Mom tried to soften the original sin blow by blaming it all on Adam and Eve but in the end it all boiled down to: You are a bad person and God is watching you and knows when you fuck up, so you better pray for forgiveness every single day. Bah.
Years later I had a bumper sticker that said "Born right the first time." :laugh:
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Or as I said to my Mom, who was a devout Xtian and taught Sunday School, when I was 9 or 10: "Why would God make so many people and then have most of them go to hell because they didn't know about Jesus?" I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to that question, and therefore have found my own path to what I consider to be the Divine.
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ThatOwlWoman said:
:~( How did you work past that?

I was raised Lutheran. Mom tried to soften the original sin blow by blaming it all on Adam and Eve but in the end it all boiled down to: You are a bad person and God is watching you and knows when you fuck up, so you better pray for forgiveness every single day. Bah.
Years later I had a bumper sticker that said "Born right the first time." :laugh:
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I worked past it through my own work in philosophy and art. To paraphrase Chico Marx: Who are you going to believe? Priests, ministers, you parents or your own mind.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed. Given that, it doesn't make sense for God to create an entire universe of rules then break those rules for a small group of people who have "found Jesus" or kneel at their bed and pray for a new bicycle.
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May want to re-read your Bible, youre getting it all wrong.
 
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