He'll probably die in prison

Phantasmal said:
No one is above the law, all should be treated equal under the law, that is what the phrase means. We all should receive equal treatment under the law, and it is Trump and all his co conspiratorial fault, and why prosecuting them to the full extent of the law is important. If they don’t face the consequences it will embolden others to do the same.
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Theoretically defensible but realistically non-sensical.
Require more "true-believerism" than I consider rational.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
Theoretically defensible but realistically non-sensical.
Require more "true-believerism" than I consider rational.
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This is definitely an area where i would agree to disagree with you.


I think nothing is more non sensical than to create a clear uber class that is above the law and where we just accept and allow them to be above the law.

We understand there will always be elements of that due to power imbalance. But the 'smaller' people control more votes and need to consolidate that power and always be pushing to hold the upper class to the same standards of power.

I think, if everyone just accepts your view we end up with a Russian Oligarch situation. That may be inevitable anyway, but the fight to slow it is important.
 
QP! said:
I think nothing is more non sensical than to create a clear uber class that is above the law and where we just accept and allow them to be above the law.
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I understand your view but would add two opinions of my own.

One, former presidents are a pretty tiny group to be labeled a "class."

Two, house arrest will solve every problem except the need for vengeance.

I'm actually ok with vengeance,

but vengeance is supposed to personal,
not a state function.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
I understand your view but would add two opinions of my own.

One, former presidents are a pretty tiny group to be labeled a "class."

Two, house arrest will solve every problem except the need for vengeance.

I'm actually ok with vengeance,

but vengeance is supposed to personal,
not a state function.
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Ok.

I read your posts as being against any prosecution and just letting them walk, which would be more reminiscent of a Putin like government and a banana republic, imo.

But if your main point is 'house arrest', i largely agree. I think the practicality of putting an ex POTUS, or anyone with lifetime Secret Service in jail, is extraordinarily problematic and will not happen and it will be house arrest.
 
QP! said:
Ok.

I read your posts as being against any prosecution and just letting them walk, which would be more reminiscent of a Putin like government and a banana republic, imo.

But if your main point is 'house arrest', i largely agree. I think the practicality of putting an ex POTUS, or anyone with lifetime Secret Service in jail, is extraordinarily problematic and will not happen and it will be house arrest.
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House arrest is problematic to me. How many others who steal top secrets get house arrest?
 
NiftyNiblick said:
If we put a former president in prison,

even a complete irredeemable asshole like Donald Trump,

we'll look like a banana republic in the eyes of the world.

They're the only ones who ever do that.



Regardless of what the typical American xenophobe believes,

it actually matters how we look in the eyes of the world.

I'll take house arrest at Mar A Logo and be grateful for his getting that.

My fear is that the hand picked SCOTUS is ready to reverse any convictions
which,
requiring 12-0 jury votes,
will be hard enough to get as it is.
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Actually, it is the opposite. The rest of the world finds Trump's crimes in discord with how we say we are. Equal treatment by the law is not true. Now Trump can show us it can be. We could have put presidents on trial before but did not. Now we are acting according to our self-proclaimed values. This is good for the world to see.
 
Phantasmal said:
House arrest is problematic to me. How many others who steal top secrets get house arrest?
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Not many.

But how many of them have mandatory secret service details?


That is the problem to over come. Trump has those secret service for life, and as i understand it, that will never change.

Secret Service have substantial power amongst other law enforcement branches to protect their charges. They can order and get many accommodations based on their threat assessments. And they tend to be on the extreme side of risk avoidance.

I may be wrong, but i see no way to lock a former POTUS in a jail, even with his Secret Service, in a way they would say they could protect their charge in the event of a riot or infiltration. The Secret Service would likely not be able to keep their guns on the inside (more dangerous if taken from them) and they would have no power of retreat in a locked cell block.

So for those reasons i do not see prison as an option and think it will be house arrest.

Its a pragmatic consideration not a 'fairness' one.
 
QP! said:
Not many.

But how many of them have mandatory secret service details?


That is the problem to over come. Trump has those secret service for life, and as i understand it, that will never change.

Secret Service have substantial power amongst other law enforcement branches to protect their charges. They can order and get many accommodations based on their threat assessments. And they tend to be on the extreme side of risk avoidance.

I may be wrong, but i see no way to lock a former POTUS in a jail, even with his Secret Service, in a way they would say they could protect their charge in the event of a riot or infiltration. The Secret Service would likely not be able to keep their guns on the inside (more dangerous if taken from them) and they would have no power of retreat in a locked cell block.

So for those reasons i do not see prison as an option and think it will be house arrest.

It’s a pragmatic consideration not a 'fairness' one.
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I disagree, there are minimum security facilities where the SS can easily protect Trump and if Trump is a convicted felon, he should lose all the perks of being an ex President.
 
Phantasmal said:
I disagree, there are minimum security facilities where the SS can easily protect Trump and if Trump is a convicted felon, he should lose all the perks of being an ex President.
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I am not sure what 'easily protect Trump' means and if your assessment would be the same one the SS would make, as ultimately it is their assessment that matters.

Even if Trump visits a court house, the amount of accomodation the SS can demand to ensure his safe arrival and departure is excessive even though you and i would certainly think him simply walking in and out with his armed detail should be plenty enough to keep him safe.

In your view is the SS armed still when locked inside a minimum security facility?
If armed are there ever any other prisoners who have even the slightest potential to get those guns away from them?
 
QP! said:
I am not sure what 'easily protect Trump' means and if your assessment would be the same one the SS would make, as ultimately it is their assessment that matters.

Even if Trump visits a court house, the amount of accomodation the SS can demand to ensure his safe arrival and departure is excessive even though you and i would certainly think him simply walking in and out with his armed detail should be plenty enough to keep him safe.

In your view is the SS armed still when locked inside a minimum security facility?
If armed are there ever any other prisoners who have even the slightest potential to get those guns away from them?
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Yes, the SS agents would be armed and trained just like a minimum security guard. They would regulate things just as they do at Mar a lago which holds more risks than would a minimum security prison.
 
Phantasmal said:
Yes, the SS agents would be armed and trained just like a minimum security guard. They would regulate things just as they do at Mar a lago which holds more risks than would a minimum security prison.
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The big issue is always avenues of retreat. Options when things go wrong. They would have numerous plans for that in Mara Lago. How do you foresee that working in a prison. Do you foresee the SS having the keys and ability to open doors and leave with Trump in an emergency?

And the minimum security guards in proximity to the inmates typically are not armed. It is only perimeter guards. So you are introducing a whole new level of threat, not just to Trump and his SS but also the security guards, if inmates target them to gain their guns and take them from them.
 
QP! said:
The big issue is always avenues of retreat. Options when things go wrong. They would have numerous plans for that in Mara Lago. How do you foresee that working in a prison. Do you foresee the SS having the keys and ability to open doors and leave with Trump in an emergency?

And the minimum security guards in proximity to the inmates typically are not armed. It is only perimeter guards. So you are introducing a whole new level of threat, not just to Trump and his SS but also the security guards, if inmates target them to gain their guns and take them from them.
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Absolutely, they would have same abilities as a guard. They would be able to get him to a secure location just like they could at Mar a lago.

They could work out all the logistics, it’s not impossible. No area is 100% secure.
 
Phantasmal said:
Absolutely, they would have same abilities as a guard. They would be able to get him to a secure location just like they could at Mar a lago.

They could work out all the logistics, it’s not impossible. No area is 100% secure.
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I worked one summer in a minimum security prison in the kitchen as a supervisor back in University and i cannot envision what you are saying at all.

Guards move from one locked section to another. They do not have the weapons or keys, as those would become targets for inmates. They get buzzed thru sections by other guards in secure locations.

While riots and killings in Minimum security are very rare, they can and do happen. So again a gun in the hands of the SS would be an instant target for other inmates. Should a riot break out, the ability to get Trump and his team out, is tied to if they can safely open a passage or door, or are the rioters closer to that point then Trump and his SS are?

So other than you saying 'its easy' i do not see any practical solution to these things, as prisons are meant to keep people locked in and protect the outside world from the prisoners, but they are generally, by design, extremely crappy at protecting the people ion the inside should some inmates be determined to cause trouble.
 
floridafan said:
Reflecting on Donald Trump's expected trip to Atlanta where he will be fingerprinted and have a mugshot taken as he is booked on racketeering charges, conservative attorney George Conway painted a portrait of a grim future for the former president.

Conway, whose estranged wife Kellyanne worked as a White House adviser to Trump, predicted the former president stands no chance of avoiding jail where he will likely end his days.

Touching on the Republican Party debate on Wednesday night, Conway began, "They're all going to end up nominating a candidate who, you know, will maybe be a convicted felon, will probably die in prison, and was found by a federal district court to be a rapist. It's crazy.

"I mean, essentially, he has been playing Russian roulette with the law and has loaded every single chamber," Conway explained. "He's not going to make it through all of this.
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Is George Conway as "conservative" as Mao Tse Tung?

Do you moron Marxists actually think you're clever with this shit?

Trump hating FASCIST rolly polly George is irrelevant.
 
Geeko Sportivo said:
Trump is under a lot of pressure. That's not healthy for a man his age. Especially one in his physical shape.

I doubt he gets much sleep these nights, and sleep deprivation can be a killer at his age, and can also lead to senility, and that runs in his family.

Both his parents had it when they weren't much older than him.
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I'm sure you're very concerned about Emmanuel Goldstein.

He may die before he ever gets to trial.
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SO you Nazis DO plan to try and kill him?

Putin murdered one of his political rivals yesterday, Quid Pro doesn't want to be "out tyranted"

Hopefully not of course, but he is up against a lot, and you will see him start breaking down mentally, physically, and financially the closer he gets to trial.
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And the real purpose of the fraudulent legal attacks - financial warfare. democrats use unlimited taxpayer funds to savage their political opponents.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
If we put a former president in prison,

even a complete irredeemable asshole like Donald Trump,

we'll look like a banana republic in the eyes of the world.

They're the only ones who ever do that.



Regardless of what the typical American xenophobe believes,

it actually matters how we look in the eyes of the world.

I'll take house arrest at Mar A Logo and be grateful for his getting that.

My fear is that the hand picked SCOTUS is ready to reverse any convictions
which,
requiring 12-0 jury votes,
will be hard enough to get as it is.
Click to expand...

We are a banana republic.

Joe Biden turned America into a third world shithole.
 
QP! said:
I worked one summer in a minimum security prison in the kitchen as a supervisor back in University and i cannot envision what you are saying at all.

Guards move from one locked section to another. They do not have the weapons or keys, as those would become targets for inmates. They get buzzed thru sections by other guards in secure locations.

While riots and killings in Minimum security are very rare, they can and do happen. So again a gun in the hands of the SS would be an instant target for other inmates. Should a riot break out, the ability to get Trump and his team out, is tied to if they can safely open a passage or door, or are the rioters closer to that point then Trump and his SS are?

So other than you saying 'its easy' i do not see any practical solution to these things, as prisons are meant to keep people locked in and protect the outside world from the prisoners, but they are generally, by design, extremely crappy at protecting the people ion the inside should some inmates be determined to cause trouble.
Click to expand...
Arrangements can be made, nothing is impossible. If Trump is convicted, he should go to jail, other countries have managed it, so can we.
 
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