Ukraine will be deNAZIfied...demilitarized...and neutral...whatever if anything survives this Evil.
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How the Ukraine situation should end.
- Thread starter Stone
- Start date
Ukraine will be deNAZIfied...demilitarized...and neutral...whatever if anything survives this Evil.
Probably true.
I'm not sure about this one, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I don't know about that one, but I definitely think the current Ukrainian government is losing its right to exist. They were already well on their way to this goal though- banning all serious opposition parties certainly didn't help.
Dont sugar coat it...being NAZI's full of racist hate does not help.
I think we can agree that Ukraine has a problem with Neo Nazis rather than Nazis per se, but the exact title shouldn't matter. Stalin certainly wasn't a Nazi, but he was still pretty bad. Any government that bans dissent is well on its way to becoming a dictatorship.
I think we can agree that Ukraine has a problem with Neo Nazis rather than Nazis per se, but the exact title shouldn't matter. Stalin certainly wasn't a Nazi, but he was still pretty bad. Any government that bans dissent is well on its way to becoming a dictatorship.
They have long been far worse than the Russians when it comes to tolerance of free minds.
I'm not sure about that. Prior to the terrorist attack in Russia recently, they seemed fairly open to a negotiated settlement. I suspect that the negotiations at this point may be somewhat more aggressive though.
Ukraine will be deNAZIfied...demilitarized...and neutral...whatever if anything survives this Evil.
Well, it'll certainly be a shadow of its former size if it survives as a nation at all.
I think we can agree that Ukraine has a problem with Neo Nazis rather than Nazis per se, but the exact title shouldn't matter. Stalin certainly wasn't a Nazi, but he was still pretty bad. Any government that bans dissent is well on its way to becoming a dictatorship.
They have long been far worse than the Russians when it comes to tolerance of free minds.
Agreed. If only the U.S. hadn't helped orchestrate the Euromaidan coup. Just downhill from there.
Well, it'll certainly be a shadow of its former size if it survives as a nation at all.
With no Black Sea access...even the use of the Dnieper will need to be negotiated with the Russians...a crushing blow...which these Evil Fucks well earned.
Agreed. If only the U.S. hadn't helped orchestrate the Euromaidan coup. Just downhill from there.
Did not help...designed and did.
Well, it'll certainly be a shadow of its former size if it survives as a nation at all.
With no Black Sea access...even the use of the Dnieper will need to be negotiated with the Russians...a crushing blow...which these Evil Fucks well earned.
If they were to negotiate now, I think they could keep Odessa. The longer they wait to negotiate though, the more likely it is that Russia will take it. As to the "Evil Fucks", I think you'd agree with me that it's the current Zelensky administration that's the problem.
Agreed. If only the U.S. hadn't helped orchestrate the Euromaidan coup. Just downhill from there.
Did not help...designed and did.
There's certainly evidence they helped design it, but it's also clear that certain Ukrainian groups played a key role as well.
With no Black Sea access...even the use of the Dnieper will need to be negotiated with the Russians...a crushing blow...which these Evil Fucks well earned.
Ukraine opened up a sea route in and out of their country a few months ago. The Russian Black Sea fleet is either destroyed or hiding, so they have no clear way to stop it.
Not sure why you think they would want to use the Dnieper. They do control both banks, but why port your ships from so close to the frontline. They use the Odesa port.
If they were to negotiate now, I think they could keep Odessa.
Russia has been unable to capture Odesa, so by definition, Ukraine can keep Odesa. Putin refuses to negotiate, so Ukraine gains nothing by negotiating. If the war ends, Putin is dead meat, so he has no reason to negotiate.
If they were to negotiate now, I think they could keep Odessa. The longer they wait to negotiate though, the more likely it is that Russia will take it. As to the "Evil Fucks", I think you'd agree with me that it's the current Zelensky administration that's the problem.
No...the Russians have been very clear that in the end Odessa will be Russian...as I have told you at least once.
If they were to negotiate now, I think they could keep Odessa.
Russia has been unable to capture Odesa, so by definition, Ukraine can keep Odesa.
For now. But surely you realize at this point that Ukraine is losing ground? I believe that Ukraine has 2 options- start working on a negotiated settlement or lose yet more ground, possibly including Odesa.
Putin refuses to negotiate, so Ukraine gains nothing by negotiating.
Putin has been open to negotiations from the start. And Zelensky almost took him up on a deal that would have been far better than what he can get now near the start of the war. This is common knowledge to those who have been following events closely. Here's an article on it from Newsweek back when it was happening at the beginning of March, 2022:
Zelensky Rejects Putin's Demands for Ending War: 'It's an Ultimatum' | Newsweek
Even back then, some had the wisdom to realize that the deal Russia was offering was probably as good as it was going to get:
Why Ukraine and NATO shouldn’t rush to dismiss Vladimir Putin’s latest peace terms | The Conversation
Alas, the west discouraged Zelensky to take the offer:
The Lost Peace? | The Nation
Russia has made it clear at this point that that deal is no longer on the table. But from what I've read, I believe it's possible that Putin would be willing to draw new boundaries according to the areas that Russia and Ukraine currently control. Ofcourse, the longer Zelensky waits, the more Russia will probably end up controlling.
At this point, even the mainstream media is finally recognizing the writing on the wall. An article published 3 days ago:
With no way out of a worsening war, Zelensky’s options look bad or worse | Washington Post
If the war ends, Putin is dead meat, so he has no reason to negotiate.
You seem to be mistaking Netenyahu's plight with Putin's. Putin did quite well in the recent Russian election. He certainly has opponents, but did you know that his approval rating actually went -up- near the start of his military intervention in Ukraine and has stayed that way? See for yourself:
Do you approve of the activities of Vladimir Putin as the president (prime minister) of Russia? | statista.com
I imagine that this may have been at least in part due to the terrible treatment of eastern Ukrainians by western Ukraine for the 8 years prior to that. A team of German journalists did a documentary on that time period that I think is quite educational. It can be seen here:
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For now. But surely you realize at this point that Ukraine is losing ground?
Ukraine was winning ground, until the ammo ran out. Then it started very slowly losing ground. They are about to get a lot more ammo, so that might start changing soon.
For Russia to capture Odesa, they would need to capture the left side of the Dnieper, cross the river, capture the right side of the river, and push through 200 miles of unfriendly territory, and then capture a city that is not friendly. They were unable to do this when they had a deep into Ukrainian territory. Now that they are not even in contact with their side of the Dnieper River...
And they have shown no talent at crossing rivers.
I believe that Ukraine has 2 options- start working on a negotiated settlement or lose yet more ground, possibly including Odesa.
Putin sees negotiation as certain death for him, so has no intention of doing it. If Biden can win reelection, Ukraine has a very good chance of pushing Russia back further. If trump wins, Russia has a good chance of advancing. Either way, the soonest we will see anyone willing to negotiate is a year or two from now.
Putin has been open to negotiations from the start.
Well that is not true.
No...the Russians have been very clear that in the end Odessa will be Russian...as I have told you at least once.
Odesa is historically a Russian speaking city, so Putin has stated he will have it. If he does not, he will probably be overthrown.
That being said, Odesa's Russian speaking Ukrainians have fought hard to stay in Ukraine. Russia could not capture Odesa, when they had forces within 50 miles of it, and a huge navy able to attack from the sea. Now that Russia's navy is either destroyed, or in hiding, and Russian forces are unable to even capture their side of the Dnieper... It does not look like it is happening.
For now. But surely you realize at this point that Ukraine is losing ground?
Ukraine was winning ground, until the ammo ran out. Then it started very slowly losing ground.
Well, it looks like we can agree that Ukraine not having much ammo is not conducive to Ukraine holding ground.
They are about to get a lot more ammo, [snip]
According to who?
For Russia to capture Odesa, they would need to capture the left side of the Dnieper, cross the river, capture the right side of the river, and push through 200 miles of unfriendly territory, and then capture a city that is not friendly. They were unable to do this when they had a deep into Ukrainian territory. Now that they are not even in contact with their side of the Dnieper River...
And they have shown no talent at crossing rivers.
I do remember them crossing the Dnieper river and holding Kherson for some time before deciding it would be best to withdraw, considering Ukraine's ability to flood the region, which did indeed happen in June 2023.
I believe that Ukraine has 2 options- start working on a negotiated settlement or lose yet more ground, possibly including Odesa.
Putin sees negotiation as certain death for him, so has no intention of doing it.
If that were true, he would never initiated negotiations back near the start of the war, as I've already pointed out with numerous links.
If Biden can win reelection, Ukraine has a very good chance of pushing Russia back further.
I honestly believe that the only way that Russia would be pushed back is with nukes. In which case, it'd become a wasteland, fit for no one, and absolutely no guarantees that those would be the only nukes used. Think about it this way- if Russia had left its nukes in Cuba, do you honestly believe that the U.S. could have been "pushed back" from their demand that they be removed?
If trump wins, Russia has a good chance of advancing.
From what I've seen, I'm not sure that Russia actually wants any more Ukrainian territory. Even MSNBC just published an opinion peace wherein the author suggests that Trump may have the right idea in terms of coming up with a negotiated settlement, even if some parts of it might not be right. Here's an article on the subject published a few hours ago:
Everything that’s wrong — and right — with Trump’s possible plan for Ukraine | MSNBC
Either way, the soonest we will see anyone willing to negotiate is a year or two from now.
As I've already mentioned, I believe that Russia's willing to negotiate terms that I think are fairly reasonable, given what led up to this war. As to Ukraine, that's another matter. You may be right that they're able to hold out all the way to 2025, but I'd say that's probably the extreme upper limit of how long they can drag this war out. I personally wouldn't be surprised if serious diplomacy started a lot sooner than that.
Putin has been open to negotiations from the start.
Well that is not true.
I just posted various articles detailing the peace plan that almost happened in March 2022. Here they are again in case you missed them:
Zelensky Rejects Putin's Demands for Ending War: 'It's an Ultimatum' | Newsweek
Why Ukraine and NATO shouldn’t rush to dismiss Vladimir Putin’s latest peace terms | The Conversation
The Lost Peace? | The Nation
If they were to negotiate now, I think they could keep Odessa. The longer they wait to negotiate though, the more likely it is that Russia will take it. As to the "Evil Fucks", I think you'd agree with me that it's the current Zelensky administration that's the problem.
No...the Russians have been very clear that in the end Odessa will be Russian...as I have told you at least once.
Perhaps you have, but could you point me towards evidence that Russia has made this clear?
According to who?
The Czech have found a million more shells for Ukraine, and Estonia has found an unknown number more. These will take one to three months to arrive, but should get there. Then there is the aid package that is making its way through Congress. That should give Ukraine two million more shells in a few months.
The USA and Europe are gearing up production, so sometime in 2025 Ukraine should have plenty of shells... Assuming trump is not elected.
I do remember them crossing the Dnieper river and holding Kherson for some time before deciding it would be best to withdraw, considering Ukraine's ability to flood the region, which did indeed happen in June 2023.
Actually, it was the Russians that flooded the region to try to stop the Ukrainians from crossing the Dnieper. The Ukrainians crossed the Dnieper anyway. Putin promised he would hold Kherson for a thousand years a week before he lost it, so it certainly does not sound like a decision.
If that were true, he would never initiated negotiations back near the start of the war, as I've already pointed out with numerous links.
Russia needs Ukraine to fail. If Ukraine is prosperous and free, then Russians will start thinking they too can be prosperous and free. Ukraine cannot give up on development, just to placate Russia for a few months
I honestly believe that the only way that Russia would be pushed back is with nukes.
Russia has been pushed back all over the place, without the use of nukes.
If they were to negotiate now, I think they could keep Odessa. The longer they wait to negotiate though, the more likely it is that Russia will take it.
No...the Russians have been very clear that in the end Odessa will be Russian...as I have told you at least once.
Odesa is historically a Russian speaking city, so Putin has stated he will have it. If he does not, he will probably be overthrown.
Putin was prepared to walk away from all of Ukraine save Crimea back in March 2022. Given this fact, I don't see why he wouldn't be willing to let Ukraine keep Odessa in condition for things such as Ukraine promising not to join NATO.
That being said, Odesa's Russian speaking Ukrainians have fought hard to stay in Ukraine.
I still remember the time when those against the Euromaidan coup were burned alive in Odesa. RT has an article on it:
'An act of genocide': A witness recalls the 2014 Odessa massacre | RT
Russia could not capture Odesa, when they had forces within 50 miles of it, and a huge navy able to attack from the sea.
Back then, Russia was much less invested in its incursion. Furthermore, it had hoped for a diplomatic settlement very early on, as I have pointed out to you numerous times. I suspect that Russia is still not dead set on capturing Odessa, but if that were to change, I doubt that anything other than a nuclear attack would stop them. It would simply be a matter of when.
Now that Russia's navy is either destroyed, or in hiding, and Russian forces are unable to even capture their side of the Dnieper... It does not look like it is happening.
I haven't heard much from Russia's navy recently, but a quick search on RT got me the following article published April 2nd:
Putin reshuffles top Navy chiefs - ‘Hero of Russia’ Admiral Aleksandr Moiseev has taken over as commander-in-chief of the Navy, the Defense Ministry has said | RT