How the Ukraine situation should end.

[Scott]

I personally recommend taking a look at Oliver Stone's Snowden film, as well as the Citizenfour documentary. Both explain what got Snowden to decide that blowing the whistle on what the U.S. government was doing was the right thing to do.

So American media is allowed to take Snowden's side?

Depends what American media we're talking about. In the case of Oliver Stone, my understanding is that he's been a thorn in the establishment's side for some time now, though I've heard that even he's been coerced into not covering some things. Similarly, Glenn Greenwald and others who participated in disseminating what Snowden had to say certainly have have some things to say regarding U.S. censorship. Here's an article that Mr Greenwald recommended on the subject from February:
https://greenwald.locals.com/post/5...ad-and-pernicious-than-most-of-us-already-kno

If they even tried to opposition's side in Russia(even legal opposition), they would be murdered.

My understanding is that Putin's main political opposition in Russia is the Communist Party, and they're still fairly strong there. This doesn't mean that I believe that Putin definitely hasn't harmed or even killed some of his political rivals, but then assassination of political figures is something that happens in the U.S. too. Surely remember the assassination of JFK and his brother RFK? Are you aware that RFK Jr., who is currently running as a Presidential candidate, was also apparently targeted for assassination? Here's a story on it:
Armed man impersonating US Marshal arrested at Robert F. Kennedy event ID’d | New York Post

From the article:
**
On July 31, Adrian Aispuro posted a threatening and often incoherent TikTok video in which his gun and fake marshal’s badge were prominently on display.

“My name is Adrian Paul Aispuro,” he said. “I need to speak to the Hell’s Angels, I need to speak to the Mongols.”

“Contact me,” he said — offering an email address.

“Let’s f–king break some kneecaps … Let’s f—k it up. I’m putting this planet on lockdown … Take care of each other, protect the women and the children. If I don’t make it back, call the f–king president. Your commander-in-chief, Donald J. Trump.”
**

Despite this incident, the Biden Administration continues to refuse to give him Secret Service protection:
RFK Jr.'s Latest Secret Service Request Cites Specific Assassination Threat | Newsweek

Maybe leaking was the right thing to do, but it was illegal.

I'm sure the Nazis would have said much the same thing to anyone leaking what was happening in the concentration camps, don't you think? There's a line from one of Frank Herbert's books that I think covers the law quite well:
**
Law always chooses sides on the basis of enforcement power. Morality and legal niceties have little to do with it when the real question is: Who has the clout?
**

And more importantly, it was legally not whistle blowing. It was at best leaking.

In the case of the U.S. military's gunning down of reporters, I think we can agree that Assange facilitated Chelsea Manning's whistle blowing by publishing it widely.

Snowden may never be able to go to the U.S. again, at least if he values his freedom.

Manning stayed behind, and served his time. He was released, and now is 100% free.

Do you believe that he should have been jailed at all?

Snowden has been unwilling to face his consequences.

Nonsense. He was quite willing to face the consequences of his actions, he just didn't want jail time in the U.S. to be one of them, so he took steps to avoid this. He still faces the consequence of not being able to return to the U.S. and remain free.

Heroes have to face consequences. The facing of those consequences is what makes them heroes.

Agreed, but I think it's truly tragic that these days, rather than cheer the heros on, the U.S. government is frequently the villain in the story. Snowden, Manning and Assange have all faced negative consequences for revealing the dark underbelly of the United States military industrial complex.

Manning should have been declared a hero for what she revealed, not jailed.

I don't completely agree with everything Manning did, but I have no doubt she has a strong moral compass.

What of her actions didn't you agree with?

I know that Navalny died while in prison, but I've seen no evidence that Putin murdered him.

Putin tried to murder him repeatedly. Putin has basically taken credit for murdering him.

Do you have any evidence for either of these assertions? As I pointed out in the post you're responding to, there is certainly evidence suggesting he wasn't the culprit.

Again, the article I linked to last time on this:
The First Question One Must Ask Is Who Benefits From Navalny’s Death? Certainly Not Putin | Scheerpost

Furthermore, there's evidence that Navalny wasn't better than Putin, but rather more amenable to what western powers wanted:
For Russian leftists, Western favorite Navalny represents same corrupt elitism | The Grayzone

Navalny is able to work with opposition leaders, and does not kill them... That makes him absolutely better than Putin.

You haven't established that Putin killed Navalny.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Peace agreements with Putin are worthless. He does not honor them. Maybe a truce might be had, but there is no way Putin can convince anyone he will agree to a peace treaty.

As for an unconditional surrender, what is the point? Putin has made clear he will kill children, so it is best to give the children a fighting chance. Seriously, even if he won in Ukraine, the resistance would continue, and even more of the people would flee Ukraine. No one is going back to Ukraine if Putin wins, just to be murdered.

You are such a liar.

 

[Hawkeye10]

"To lead the Ukrainians to believe that they could beat Russia was a criminal offense"
Ray McGovern

 

[Scott]

There is no way the peace agreement or more likely unconditional surrender is signed without the Ukrainians sure that we betrayed them.

Peace agreements with Putin are worthless. He does not honor them.

I think you're getting Putin confused with European leaders such as Angela Merkel:

Angela Merkel admits that the Minsk Agreements were only signed to give Ukraine time | Donbass Insider

From the article:
**
[Angela Merkel:] “I considered the 2008 discussion on the membership of Ukraine and Georgia in NATO to be a mistake. These countries did not have the necessary conditions for it, and the consequences of such a decision had not been fully considered, both in terms of Russia’s actions against Georgia and Ukraine and for NATO and its rules of assistance. And the 2014 Minsk agreements were an attempt to give Ukraine time.”

[snip]

The Russian authorities of course reacted strongly to Angela Merkel’s statement, starting with Maria Zakharova, the Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, who said that this interview gave Russia proof of what she had been saying for years about the lack of will on the part of the West to push Ukraine to implement the Minsk agreements. Above all, the purpose of the agreements was to serve as a diversion while NATO countries pumped arms into Ukraine and then reignited the conflict.

“In this revelation, the main point was that, from the West’s point of view, it was all a fabrication, flirting with the use of international law for the sole purpose of supplying the Kiev regime with weapons. It was all about “distracting” the eyes of the international community from the real events on the territory of Ukraine, the humanitarian catastrophe, the endless killings, which claimed more than 13,000 victims on all sides before 2022. This had only one purpose: to supply the Kiev regime with weapons and to prepare it politically to launch the hostilities that we saw at the beginning of 2022, when the Kiev regime started to launch deadly strikes against the Donbass. This left no room for any other action than that taken by the Russian Federation: first recognizing these territories as sovereign, and then accepting them as part of the Russian Federation so that they can really defend them, to save their lives,” said Maria Zakharova.

But above all, for the Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, Angela Merkel’s statement proves that the West does not shy away from any lie, and sits on international law when it suits it, regardless of the consequences for innocent civilians.

“This confession by former German Chancellor A. Merkel sounds terrible. Merkel sounds terrible: forgery (as a method of Western action), machinations, manipulations, all sorts of distortions of the truth of law and law that one can only imagine. They knew even then, in 2015, when they were holding talks for several hours, that they would never implement it and that they would supply arms to the Kiev regime. They had no mercy for anyone: women, children, civilians in Donbass, and even Ukraine as a whole. They needed a conflict. They were ready to do it already in 2015,” she added.

Then it was the President of the Russian Federation, Vladimir Putin, who commented on the former German Chancellor’s statement, saying that Angela Merkel’s words not only surprised but disappointed him.

“To be honest, it was a complete surprise to me. It is disappointing. Frankly, I didn’t expect to hear this from the former Federal Chancellor, because I always assumed that the leaders of the Federal Republic [of Germany] were being sincere with us. Yes, of course they were on the side of Ukraine, they supported Ukraine, but I always thought that the leaders of the Federal Republic had always sincerely sought a settlement on the principles that we had agreed and reached, including in the Minsk process,” he said by way of introduction.

He went on to point out that Angela Merkel’s words only proved that Moscow had made the right decision in launching the special operation, as the former German Chancellor made it clear that Ukraine’s aim was indeed to resume hostilities and settle the Donbass conflict by force of arms, and therefore in blood.

“What has been said now only proves that we made the right choice in launching the special military operation. Why did we do it? Because it turns out that nobody was going to implement the Minsk agreements. The Ukrainian leadership, in the words of former President Poroshenko, who also said it: he signed them, but he was not going to implement them. But I still hoped that the other participants in this process were sincere with us. It turns out that they were also deceiving us. It was only a question of showering Ukraine with weapons and preparing it for military action,” the Russian President added.

Vladimir Putin then said that in view of Angela Merkel’s statement, perhaps Russia should have intervened earlier. But what Angela Merkel failed to realize in making this thunderous statement is that she has definitely undermined any trust that Russia might have placed in Western governments, which means future diplomatic problems.
**

 

[Scott]

Peace agreements with Putin are worthless. He does not honor them. Maybe a truce might be had, but there is no way Putin can convince anyone he will agree to a peace treaty.

As for an unconditional surrender, what is the point? Putin has made clear he will kill children, so it is best to give the children a fighting chance. Seriously, even if he won in Ukraine, the resistance would continue, and even more of the people would flee Ukraine. No one is going back to Ukraine if Putin wins, just to be murdered.

You are such a liar.

I haven't seen any evidence that Walt is trying to deceive anyone. I can easily believe that he is simply misinformed. I responded to this post of his as well in my previous post with evidence as to the West's duplicity here and how that has led to Russia's trust in the west sinking to new lows. Let's see how Walt responds.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I think you're getting Putin confused with European leaders such as Angela Merkel:

Angela Merkel admits that the Minsk Agreements were only signed to give Ukraine time | Donbass Insider

From the article:
**
[Angela Merkel:] “I considered the 2008 discussion on the membership of Ukraine and Georgia in NATO to be a mistake. These countries did not have the necessary conditions for it, and the consequences of such a decision had not been fully considered, both in terms of Russia’s actions against Georgia and Ukraine and for NATO and its rules of assistance. And the 2014 Minsk agreements were an attempt to give Ukraine time.”

[snip]

The Russian authorities of course reacted strongly to Angela Merkel’s statement, starting with Maria Zakharova, the Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, who said that this interview gave Russia proof of what she had been saying for years about the lack of will on the part of the West to push Ukraine to implement the Minsk agreements. Above all, the purpose of the agreements was to serve as a diversion while NATO countries pumped arms into Ukraine and then reignited the conflict.

“In this revelation, the main point was that, from the West’s point of view, it was all a fabrication, flirting with the use of international law for the sole purpose of supplying the Kiev regime with weapons. It was all about “distracting” the eyes of the international community from the real events on the territory of Ukraine, the humanitarian catastrophe, the endless killings, which claimed more than 13,000 victims on all sides before 2022. This had only one purpose: to supply the Kiev regime with weapons and to prepare it politically to launch the hostilities that we saw at the beginning of 2022, when the Kiev regime started to launch deadly strikes against the Donbass. This left no room for any other action than that taken by the Russian Federation: first recognizing these territories as sovereign, and then accepting them as part of the Russian Federation so that they can really defend them, to save their lives,” said Maria Zakharova.

But above all, for the Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, Angela Merkel’s statement proves that the West does not shy away from any lie, and sits on international law when it suits it, regardless of the consequences for innocent civilians.

“This confession by former German Chancellor A. Merkel sounds terrible. Merkel sounds terrible: forgery (as a method of Western action), machinations, manipulations, all sorts of distortions of the truth of law and law that one can only imagine. They knew even then, in 2015, when they were holding talks for several hours, that they would never implement it and that they would supply arms to the Kiev regime. They had no mercy for anyone: women, children, civilians in Donbass, and even Ukraine as a whole. They needed a conflict. They were ready to do it already in 2015,” she added.

Then it was the President of the Russian Federation, Vladimir Putin, who commented on the former German Chancellor’s statement, saying that Angela Merkel’s words not only surprised but disappointed him.

“To be honest, it was a complete surprise to me. It is disappointing. Frankly, I didn’t expect to hear this from the former Federal Chancellor, because I always assumed that the leaders of the Federal Republic [of Germany] were being sincere with us. Yes, of course they were on the side of Ukraine, they supported Ukraine, but I always thought that the leaders of the Federal Republic had always sincerely sought a settlement on the principles that we had agreed and reached, including in the Minsk process,” he said by way of introduction.

He went on to point out that Angela Merkel’s words only proved that Moscow had made the right decision in launching the special operation, as the former German Chancellor made it clear that Ukraine’s aim was indeed to resume hostilities and settle the Donbass conflict by force of arms, and therefore in blood.

“What has been said now only proves that we made the right choice in launching the special military operation. Why did we do it? Because it turns out that nobody was going to implement the Minsk agreements. The Ukrainian leadership, in the words of former President Poroshenko, who also said it: he signed them, but he was not going to implement them. But I still hoped that the other participants in this process were sincere with us. It turns out that they were also deceiving us. It was only a question of showering Ukraine with weapons and preparing it for military action,” the Russian President added.

Vladimir Putin then said that in view of Angela Merkel’s statement, perhaps Russia should have intervened earlier. But what Angela Merkel failed to realize in making this thunderous statement is that she has definitely undermined any trust that Russia might have placed in Western governments, which means future diplomatic problems.
**

"NATO will not move one inch towards Russia" the Americans and the Europeans promised the Russians as the Soviet Union fell.

Walt does nothing but repeat that Regimes narratrives, which are almost all lies and bullshit....which has a lot to do with why the American Empire is crashing.

The world is generally done with us...Israel is an albatross, Europe is in collapse and useless, Australia is almost useless....Japan and South Korea will in the end have no choice but to abandon us and make a deal with China Bloc.......pretty much everyone else now hates us.

EDIT: The Russians are also remembering that we betrayed them on Libya/Gaddafi...I dont remember the details but I do remember that they are right...I at one point looked into it.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Andrei Martyanov is pretty awesome....he has nothing but contempt for the American military....says that all the generals know about war is what they see in the movies....they have no idea what they are doing....see Mileys spring offensive for illustration.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I haven't seen any evidence that Walt is trying to deceive anyone. I can easily believe that he is simply misinformed. I responded to this post of his as well in my previous post with evidence as to the West's duplicity here and how that has led to Russia's trust in the west sinking to new lows. Let's see how Walt responds.

That he is simply constantly wrong is a common misconception at JPP.

I know better....which is why I almost never look at his spew.

 

[Scott]

"To lead the Ukrainians to believe that they could beat Russia was a criminal offense"
Ray McGovern

Saw most of it, quite good

 

[Scott]

"NATO will not move one inch towards Russia" the Americans and the Europeans promised the Russians as the Soviet Union fell.

Walt does nothing but repeat that Regimes narratrives, which are almost all lies and bullshit....which has a lot to do with why the American Empire is crashing.

The world is generally done with us...Israel is an albatross, Europe is in collapse and useless, Australia is almost useless....Japan and South Korea will in the end have no choice but to abandon us and make a deal with China Bloc.......pretty much everyone else now hates us.

EDIT: The Russians are also remembering that we betrayed them on Libya/Gaddafi...I dont remember the details but I do remember that they are right...I at one point looked into it.

Yeah, looks like the American Empire in its current incarnation's going down. I still hold hope that the U.S. will learn from its mistakes, the issue is when.

 

[Scott]

I haven't seen any evidence that Walt is trying to deceive anyone. I can easily believe that he is simply misinformed. I responded to this post of his as well in my previous post with evidence as to the West's duplicity here and how that has led to Russia's trust in the west sinking to new lows. Let's see how Walt responds.

That he is simply constantly wrong is a common misconception at JPP.

I know better....which is why I almost never look at his spew.

Here's where I'm skeptical. The signature I use in my posts definitely applies here: "Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it." Since you claim that Walt is lying, I challenge you to provide evidence for this assertion.

 

[goat]

I haven't seen any evidence that Walt is trying to deceive anyone. I can easily believe that he is simply misinformed. I responded to this post of his as well in my previous post with evidence as to the West's duplicity here and how that has led to Russia's trust in the west sinking to new lows. Let's see how Walt responds.

Walt is what they call a merchant of doubt. They're on every political and finance site, especially those with conspiracy theories showing hard evidence against the official narrative. Walt doesn't care how much evidence you pile on; his job is to bring doubt to the facts.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Walt is what they call a merchant of doubt. They're on every political and finance site, especially those with conspiracy theories showing hard evidence against the official narrative. Walt doesn't care how much evidence you pile on; his job is to bring doubt to the facts.

Walt claims to be an expert but the only thing he spews is the Regimes narrative, which he knows backwards forwards and sideways.

This is a narrative warrior...who only tells the truth on the rare occasion that he calculates that the truth is going his way.

 

[goat]

Walt claims to be an expert but the only thing he spews is the Regimes narrative, which he knows backwards forwards and sideways.

This is a narrative warrior...who only tells the truth on the rare occasion that he calculates that the truth is going his way.

I was on a site when a woman had access to edit Wikipedia to make it match her argument. That's how desperate people are to keep the facts from getting out. Walt's job is to give JPP hope that NATO can beat Russia.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I was on a site when a woman had access to edit Wikipedia to make it match her argument. That's how desperate people are to keep the facts from getting out. Walt's job is to give JPP hope that NATO can beat Russia.

The WOKE Death Cult has as one of its main objectives to so muddy the waters that even people who can still think in spite of the WOKE using the schools and media to degrade this capacity give up trying to figure out the truth and instead do and think as they are told.

You can see why I find the claim that Walt has no idea what is going on and thus needs to be lead to truth aggravating...it is the complete lack of understanding of the situation....it is to not see at all the Evil that is being done.

Since I long ago figured out Walts game I avoid Walt....there is nothing in it for me.

 

[goat]

The WOKE Death Cult has as one of its main objectives to so muddy the waters that even people who can still think in spite of the WOKE using the schools and media to degrade this capacity give up trying to figure out the truth and instead do and think as they are told.

You can see why I find the claim that Walt has no idea what is going on and thus needs to be lead to truth aggravating...it is the complete lack of understanding of the situation....it is to not see at all the Evil that is being done.

Since I long ago figured out Walts game I avoid Walt....there is nothing in it for me.

People here still insist Russia started the war in Ukraine. They don't care how many times Putin tried to negotiate peace until he was left with no other choice but to fight for the survival of Russia.

 

[Hawkeye10]

People here still insist Russia started the war in Ukraine. They don't care how many times Putin tried to negotiate peace until he was left with no other choice but to fight for the survival of Russia.

Some know the truth and repeat the lie as a demonstration of their solidarity in the destination of UTOPIA (for example Walt)....others have no idea what is going on....their brains have been scrambled in a decades long brainwashing operation.

 

[goat]

Some know the truth and repeat the lie as a demonstration of their solidarity in the destination of UTOPIA (for example Walt)....others have no idea what is going on....their brains have been scrambled in a decades long brainwashing operation.

I heard the Ukraine military brass has turned against Zelensky but I heard the same thing 4 months ago. The US has too much influence over geopolitics, so the bloodshed will continue to keep Putin busy and away from Iran.

 

[Hawkeye10]

For several years, mostly at DP, I called the Walts the bus drivers to UTOPIA, and I pointed out that many will the thrown overboard (added to the massive new piles of bodies) along the way.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I heard the Ukraine military brass has turned against Zelensky but I heard the same thing 4 months ago. The US has too much influence over geopolitics, so the bloodshed will continue to keep Putin busy and away from Iran.

Who wants to be the last Ukrainian to die for the collapsing American Empire?