If Life Begins at Conception

Timshel

New member
I wrote this a couple days ago after DQs IUD question.

http://www.ronstringfield.com/?r=m&d=2&e=198

If Life Begins at Conception

You may well be pro-life, but you can not seriously believe that, legally, life begins at conception. Not unless you are willing to accept numerous exceptions to avoid absurd results.

Conception happens when the egg is fertilized. Pregnancy is achieved once the fertilized egg implants on the uterine wall. So conception happens prior to pregnancy. Between 30 and 50 percent of fertilized eggs fail to implant and are excreted during the menstrual cycle.

If life begins at conception then a fertilized egg that fails to implant is a death. If there is a death would the state then issue a death certificate? Would the state need to investigate the cause of the death? If not, then why not? If so, then how on earth would the state conduct such an investigation without extreme invasions of privacy? How would they even know that a death had occurred without monitoring every woman's menstrual cycle?

What about actions by the mother which might lower the chances of implantation, though not taken for that express purpose? For instance, breastfeeding reduces ovarian activity. This causes the uterus to thin, which may in turn prevent implantation of a fertilized egg (Note: the reduction of ovarian activity may also prevent egg production altogether). Some studies have also shown that smoking, alcohol and even caffeine may also reduce the chance of implantation (along with causing a host of other fertility issues).

What about women that have had partial hysterectomies? If their ovaries are left intact they can continue to produce eggs. These eggs are often fertilized and without a uterus they are not likely to implant (Note: they can implant on other organs in the abdomen or fallopian tubes).

What about older women, for whom a fertilized egg is far less likely to implant?

Should these actions that result in a fertilized egg failing to implant be treated as homicides? Should these women be allowed to continue having sex at all when it is so likely to result in death?

It is ridiculous for us to pretend that a fertilized egg excreted during a woman's menstrual cycle is a death. While it might be a boon for the funeral business it would require massive government intervention into our lives to prevent.

While this does not argue that real abortion (i.e., abortion is early termination of a pregnancy which is not possible before pregnancy has been achieved) must remain legal, it does argue against a poorly thought out slogan or any attempts to outlaw contraceptives that work after fertilization and prior to implantation/pregnancy.
 
one itty bitty mistake there, and i used to believe the same as you that conception begins when the egg is fertilized on day one of week one of pregnancy...but this is not true...

I was on a medical site describing the weeks of pregnancy and it said that Conception takes place in week 3 of pregnancy...(week 1 begins on the last day of having a period)...

Well anyway, conception takes place according to the Medical field when the fertilized egg makes it through the fallopian tube in to the uterus and attaches and embeds itself in to the uterus and rapidly begins cell division....

most fertilized eggs are lost BEFORE conception.

doesn't become an embryo untill the late 3rd/4the week*
 
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one itty bitty mistake there, and i used to believe the same as you that conception begins when the egg is fertilized on day one of week one of pregnancy...but this is not true...

I was on a medical site describing the weeks of pregnancy and it said that Conception takes place in week 3 of pregnancy...(week 1 begins on the last day of having a period)...

Well anyway, conception takes place according to the Medical field when the egg makes it through the fallopian tube in to the uterus and attaches and embeds itself in to the uterus and rapidly begins cell division....

most fertilized eggs are lost BEFORE conception.

doesn't become an embryo untill the late 3rd/4the week*

Radical pro-lifers believe that life begins when the sperm hits the egg, and so disagree with things like the morning after pill which simply prevent the fertilized egg from attaching itself to the utereus.
 
If life begins at conception are women who drink , eat poorly, etc guilty of child abuse ? All life has rights you know.
 
According to Stedman's Medical Dictionary, pregnancy is the period between conception and birth.

The fact that the zygote does not change whether life has been created.

The fact that the zygote is spontaneously expelled from the body is no more a criminal act than if my heart stopped due to a massive heart attack.

But if someone CAUSES my heart to stop, it is not the same thing.




I am not saying one is right and one is wrong. But to dismiss one side as idiocy is simply wrong.
 
one itty bitty mistake there, and i used to believe the same as you that conception begins when the egg is fertilized on day one of week one of pregnancy...but this is not true...

I was on a medical site describing the weeks of pregnancy and it said that Conception takes place in week 3 of pregnancy...(week 1 begins on the last day of having a period)...

Well anyway, conception takes place according to the Medical field when the fertilized egg makes it through the fallopian tube in to the uterus and attaches and embeds itself in to the uterus and rapidly begins cell division....

most fertilized eggs are lost BEFORE conception.

doesn't become an embryo untill the late 3rd/4the week*


There is a lot of political motivation to play with the definitions. But medical professionals and law define pregnancy as implantation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_pregnancy_controversy#Definitions_of_pregnancy_beginning

Since most/many pro-lifers believe that contraceptives designed to prevent implantation are abortifacients this implies that they mean conception as fertilization.

Pregnancies are dated based on the last day of the prior period. But clearly that is not the beginning of the pregnancy and no one would argue it is.
 
According to Stedman's Medical Dictionary, pregnancy is the period between conception and birth.

The fact that the zygote does not change whether life has been created.

The fact that the zygote is spontaneously expelled from the body is no more a criminal act than if my heart stopped due to a massive heart attack.

But if someone CAUSES my heart to stop, it is not the same thing.

I am not saying one is right and one is wrong. But to dismiss one side as idiocy is simply wrong.

Why don't we treat them as legal deaths? And if the women are taking actions that are VERY likely to result in death (e.g., breastfeeding), why would that not be manslaughter?
 
miscarriages are technically called "Spontaneus abortions"...those are natural abortions or "miscarriages"...the fertilized egg not attaching to the uterus is not a spontaneus abortion, they were never conceived according the the medical site I was reading....conception takes place about a week after the sex...which is counted as week 3 of the pregnancy because they make you go back to the day following the last day of your period as week 1 is what i read....now granted, I have never born a child so i am really clueless and could be corrected on this I suppose.... ;)
 
miscarriages are technically called "Spontaneus abortions"...those are natural abortions or "miscarriages"...the fertilized egg not attaching to the uterus is not a spontaneus abortion, they were never conceived according the the medical site I was reading....conception takes place about a week after the sex...which is counted as week 3 of the pregnancy because they make you go back to the day following the last day of your period as week 1 is what i read....now granted, I have never born a child so i am really clueless and could be corrected on this I suppose.... ;)

Alright, to avoid argument on definitions, replace my use of conception with fertilization. That is my point.
 
There is no such thing as "legally" becoming life. Biology is not dependent on law. Regardless of the absurd hypotheticals you want to dream up, life begins at the moment of conception, and ends when it is a.) terminated or b.) completes it's life cycle. This is a concrete scientific fact, it can not be twisted, altered, or spun into what it isn't. Therefore, your thread may as well say... If water is hydrogen and oxygen.... If the Earth revolves around the Sun... If the moon is orbiting the Earth... These are already provable scientific facts, we don't have to suppose IF they are true, we KNOW they are true, because we aren't ignorant of science. It is fine to say; Life begins at conception, so...<insert absurd hypothetical>?
 
Is this the question that arose from that strange interview that Obama and McCain did with some church leader a few weeks back? If so, it was a very strange question indeed.

I think a lot of confusion arises out of people conflating the biological question of when a new individual life is created (fertilisation, implantation - whatever you're having yourself) with the question of when human and legal rights are established for an individual.

Whatever the biological or theological debate about when a new individual human life begins all of our legal systems are quite clear on when one's human and legal rights begin - at birth! In order for human rights to have any legal basis it is necessary for an individual to have a "legal personality", i.e. the ability to be recognised by a court as a distinct individual. In all of our legal systems that personality is established only at birth. The practical consequences of establishing a seperate legal personality for a foetus in the womb and assigning legal rights to that personality woudl be truly bizarre and would lead to some appalling injustices.

When considering this issue it is necessary to seperate the biological and theological questions out from the legal question. If you do not you will get hopelessly confused.
 
Is this the question that arose from that strange interview that Obama and McCain did with some church leader a few weeks back? If so, it was a very strange question indeed.

I think a lot of confusion arises out of people conflating the biological question of when a new individual life is created (fertilisation, implantation - whatever you're having yourself) with the question of when human and legal rights are established for an individual.

Whatever the biological or theological debate about when a new individual human life begins all of our legal systems are quite clear on when one's human and legal rights begin - at birth! In order for human rights to have any legal basis it is necessary for an individual to have a "legal personality", i.e. the ability to be recognised by a court as a distinct individual. In all of our legal systems that personality is established only at birth. The practical consequences of establishing a seperate legal personality for a foetus in the womb and assigning legal rights to that personality woudl be truly bizarre and would lead to some appalling injustices.

When considering this issue it is necessary to seperate the biological and theological questions out from the legal question. If you do not you will get hopelessly confused.

The rights of the fetus have alrady been established.

When people have killed pregnant women, they have been charged with TWO murders.

When a woman abuses drugs or alcohol, she can be brought up on charges if she is pregnant.

As a matter of fact, a Wisconsin man was charged with murder when he slipped his mistress a drug to cause her to miscarry.



So the legal precedents have been set to have the laws follow what biology has learned.
 
The rights of the fetus have alrady been established.

When people have killed pregnant women, they have been charged with TWO murders.

When a woman abuses drugs or alcohol, she can be brought up on charges if she is pregnant.

As a matter of fact, a Wisconsin man was charged with murder when he slipped his mistress a drug to cause her to miscarry.

So the legal precedents have been set to have the laws follow what biology has learned.

Interesting, but when? I'd be grateful if you would direct me to the cases where a person charged with killing a pregnant woman have been also been charged with the murder of the child they are carrying. Likewise the Wisconsin incident you referred to. Are you sure it was murder that the perpetrators were convicted of and not assault?

The fact that a foetus in the womb does not have a seperate legal personality does not prevent a court from intervening when that foetus' life or welfare is put at risk. The courts do that for non-human animals' welfare also. But that is a very long way from assigning human rights and a legal personality to a foetus.
 
Interesting, but when? I'd be grateful if you would direct me to the cases where a person charged with killing a pregnant woman have been also been charged with the murder of the child they are carrying. Likewise the Wisconsin incident you referred to. Are you sure it was murder that the perpetrators were convicted of and not assault?

36 U.S. States and the Federal Government have full or partial legal protections for unborn victims of violent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act
 
There is no such thing as "legally" becoming life. Biology is not dependent on law. Regardless of the absurd hypotheticals you want to dream up, life begins at the moment of conception, and ends when it is a.) terminated or b.) completes it's life cycle. This is a concrete scientific fact, it can not be twisted, altered, or spun into what it isn't. Therefore, your thread may as well say... If water is hydrogen and oxygen.... If the Earth revolves around the Sun... If the moon is orbiting the Earth... These are already provable scientific facts, we don't have to suppose IF they are true, we KNOW they are true, because we aren't ignorant of science. It is fine to say; Life begins at conception, so...<insert absurd hypothetical>?

A crocodile is also alive.
 
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