Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Maybe, but at least I’m not “mad” enough to think Bush had been in office for 2 years before 9/11, son.
Iran launched drone attack on Isreal
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Simple case of being off by a year on the election and inauguration.
BFD.
If that's all you've got to hang your hat on, you ought to just quit while you're ahead.
Because the rest of your argument is trash.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Two years you fucking numbnuts. I knew you are a little “off” before, but thanks for proving you are Sybil-level of being “off”. You can’t even apologize and get it right.
Your anger is outrageous and now I know you are delusional too. Congrats, ‘Mad, you just made my TOP TEN list of JPP members most likely to shoot up a mall or political gathering of those you oppose.
You're so fucking stupid you can't even do basic arithmetic.
I had said Bush was in office two years.
Subtract the (most of) one year he actually was in office and I was off by one year, idiot.
Also, my explanation was not an apology.
Why would I apologize to a dumb fucking Dork Douche like you?
Your tender little pussy feelings get hurt so easy you think people who are merely laughing at you are angry.
Either that or you're desperate for a gimmick to use because you can't defend your stupid, horse's ass arguments.
You can't make anyone mad because you don't amount to enough.
Either way, you're just one sad asshole.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Jesus fucking Christ you’re a derelict. What was it? Drugs? Alcohol? Both? What turned you into the psychotic mess you’ve become, ‘Mad? Like goat and a few other whacked out losers, you’re just a useless waste of flesh, food and space. Why don’t you do yourself and your family a favor and either get help or remove yourself from their lives?
You don’t even know how long Bush was in office, much less admit it, before 9/11. You’re an unapologetic liar, a nutjob and as worthless as a MAGAt since you share the same values.
Geeeez.... and YOU keep telling ME I'm the one who's "mad"????
You're shitting your drawers so bad you're gonna have to demolish your crapshack and rebuild it because it's not fit for habitation anymore!!!
Not that it likely ever was, but for someone like you who's used to living in the woods, it's probably like staying in a hotel.
Until I made you shit yourself so bad you had to get the fuck out of it!!!!
Don't worry though. I'm sure you'll find enough used pallets lying around to build another one in a week or so.
Clinton appointed that moron Al Gore as head of the Aviation and Safety commission. That worked out sooo well.
"Gore announces proposals to fight air terrorism
CNN
http://www.cnn.com › airport.security
Sep 5, 1996 — The commission wants the government to install state-of-the-art bomb-detecting equipment in airports and to fund the research and development ..."
http://www.cnn.com/US/9609/05/airport.security/
How many bombs did terrorists get on planes after 1996? Could it be zero?
When Clinton was President, he had the White House coordinate between the FBI and the CIA. Bush did not think that was important. Bush shutdown the FBI office in Germany, so there was no one for the Germans to tell the intelligence about the planning of 9/11 to. Bush's DOJ deprioritized the investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui.
On September 10th, Bush announced the shutting down of the Bin Laden Team, and the transferring of the counter terrorism budget to missile defense. While that was decision never went into effect, and was quickly reversed the next day, it indicates where his thinking was.
I cannot guarantee that Gore would have stopped it, but there is a real chance he could have.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
They didn't do a very good job since a lot of info fell between the cracks. Let's be clear: those putting all the blame on Bush or Clinton for 9/11 are idiots. Our nation failed. Our nation was complacent, and it bit us in the ass.
My understanding is that Cheney and Rumsfeld were looking at Iraq from day one. That focus would, indeed, take them off Afghanistan. Still, I fail to see how Gore would have stopped al-Qaeda in 8 months when Clinton/Gore didn't do it in 8 years.
Clinton prevented several terrorist attacks, including the Millennium Plot.
The NeoCons started planning the invasion of Iraq in the early 1990's. That is a decade before day one. A group called the Vulcans had the complete plan for invading Iraq, before Bush entered office. 9/11 was used as an excuse, but actually had little to nothing to do with any of it.
Shifting resources to Iraq did mean Al Qaeda was allowed to escape from Afghanistan. That is a mistake that Bush made which Gore would not have made.
The Clinton Administration stopped the Millennium Plot by taking the issue seriously, and coordinating efforts. The Bush Administration did not take the threat of 9/11 seriously, and chose not to coordinate efforts. If they had tried, they may have failed, but they may have been successful. Gore would have, in theory, followed the Clinton script, and tried.
Remember, to stop a single plot, you do not have to stop an entire organization, just that one plot.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
He didn't stop the 1993 WTC attack.
Ummm...were there Neocons in the early 90s? I thought they rolled in with Newt and GW. I never heard of the Vulcans...outside of ST. No doubt there are groups who planned the invasion of Canada.
Agreed. Invading Iraq was stupid for multiple reasons. One is the one you mentioned: It took our eyes off al-Qaeda and the Afghan situation.
We can agree to disagree that Clinton or Gore would have stopped 9/11 had they been in office.
Agreed. It's a system hiding in the shadows.
He didn't stop the 1993 WTC attack.
You say there was no way for Bush to prevent 9/11 with only 8 months, but then say Clinton should have prevented the previous attack with only a month?
The fact remains that Clinton (and Gore) learned from the terrorist attack one month into their administration. That was hard earned knowledge, that Bush threw away, which made 9/11 more possible. Had Gore been elected, he would not have thrown that knowledge away.
The NeoCons formed in the early 1990's. They also called themselves Neo-Reaganites. The Cold War was ending leaving the question: what's next? Should Republicans advocate for isolationism(like they did before the Cold War), or for aggressive engagement(like they did during the Cold War)? Reagan was alive, but in no state to guide them. The NeoCons decided that Reagan would want them to engage in a multi-polar world, and become the only superpower. They created the Project For the New American Century, because they literally thought the 2000's were going to be the American century with America dictating the New World Order.
By the late 1990's, all the plans were in place. All they needed was to get into power. The Bush Administration gave them the power, and they ran with it.
One of the lessor known flaws of the NeoCons was they continued the Political Realists' belief that the only actors on the international stage was nation states. They did not believe it was possible for non-nation states to do anything of significance. Sometimes groups that looked like non-nation states would look like they were acting, but they were just fronts for nation states. It was a world view that did not allow for 9/11 ever happening. Part of
their blaming of Iraq was real, in that they could not believe Al Qaeda had done anything without a nation state backing it.
They were formed in the early 1990's, developed their plans in the late 1990's, and executed their plans with Bush in the early 2000's.
Rice created an advisory group named after a statue of the god Vulcan that she liked. It became the sole source of foreign policy advice to the Bush Campaign. It did not get absolute power at first in the Bush Administration, but did get the vast majority of the power. With time, they got more and more of the power.
There was no need to invade Canada. The idea would be to have half a dozen wars in a dozen years. Invade different strong yet weak countries in different regions, nation build, and setup seedling democracies. The democracy would spread out from the initial invaded country to take over the region. And the profits from previous invasions would be used to finance further invasions.
Iraq was strong, yet weak. It was in a region that could really use democracy and freedom. It had a lot of a valuable natural resource that could be used to finance the further wars. It seemed like the perfect fit.
I cannot say that Gore would have prevented 9/11, but I can say that he would have had a chance. I think you have to admit that Gore would have had a chance. The real question is whether he would have had a better chance.
We will never know the road not taken.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
No, I'm pointing out the difficulty of free nation's ability in stopping such things especially when they are complacent. Let's not forget the great "Guns to Butter" movement after the fall of the USSR. Our national complacency was the main problem. The idea the two great oceans would protect us from harm. WTC '93 should have been a wake-up call, but it wasn't.
I never heard of the Neo-Cons until GW but do not doubt your historical statements.
The point being that there are people of all kinds with wacky ideas. JPP is a good example of the diversity. GW's group were all oil men and they wanted American control in the heart of the MidEast then be awarded the contracts for exploitation. They were both arrogant and stupid enough to think the Iraqis would throw open their doors in appreciation of being liberated and say "Please take all of our oil as a thank you".
Agreed. Agreed he would have had a better chance given the focus of the Bush administration but given our nation's complacency toward military and intelligence matters, I doubt it would have made a difference. FWIW, I think Gore would have stayed focused on Afghanistan and finished the job allowing us to leave within 5 years militarily.
This is where we disagree. It was definitely a wake up call for Clinton and Gore, but was not for Bush.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Then why weren't our military and intelligence services better funded? You're still blaming Bush for the ten years of 9/11 planning and his 8 months in office?
As I do now, I primarily blame Congress plus both national complacency and selfishness.
The National Guard spent 2000, and 2001 practicing attacking passenger aircraft, thereby scaring the heck out of commercial pilots. We were spending half a billion on the Bin Laden Team. It was at a point that we could literally find nothing more to spend money on. There were FBI offices in all the Al Qaeda hotspots to get intelligence from police organizations. We could go on and on.
The point is Clinton made severe political sacrifices to get the assets necessary to protect America in place.
In the wake of Benghazi consulate attack, Congress both found that there was nowhere near enough spent on diplomatic security, AND cut the diplomatic security budget. I think that says it all.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Obviously all that training was wasted since 9/11 still happened. Sad. You are free to put all the blame in GW and his oil crooks. I'm saying Congress and the American people share the most blame. Just as we're doing now.
There's a lot of weird shit around Benghazi. Such as why was the US ambassador was in a hostile city in an unsecure facility on the anniversary of 9/11 while everyone else was holed up the much more secure Tripoli? My guess is a black op to transfer weapons from Libya to Syrian rebels and the ambassador was observing it for State.