Is gun control constitutional? Is it racist? Is it even possible?

[Into the Night]

You simply appeal to ignorance as is the wont of the right-wing. Fantasy is better than the truth for them.

Fallacy fallacy. Inversion fallacy. You are describing Democrats again.

 

[Into the Night]

I agree to disagree. Our Second Amendment is clear as to what is necessary to the security of our free States.

And, this is a sovereign right of any State of our federal Union:

So? You cannot use this to discard the 2nd amendment.

 

[Into the Night]

how is that possible when the Constitution specifically forbids the states from maintaining their own troops without the consent of congress??????

It doesn't. Go read Article I, $8, Article I, $10, the 2nd Amendment, and the 10th Amendment again. States have the inherent right to organize a militia. Those troops must remain in the State. They are there to defend that State.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

Yes, it is. So says SCOTUS in the Heller decision. Why is this even a topic? There is only one correct answer.

the correct answer is it's absolute. the courts cannot change the constitution. the government is not the final arbiter of the constitution. the government was never given power to redefine the limits of their power.

 

[Into the Night]

You ignore the law. Well regulated militia of the United States have literal recourse to our Second Amendment when keeping and bear Arms for the security needs of our States or the Union.

You cannot use the 2nd amendment to discard the 2nd amendment.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

It doesn't. Go read Article I, $8, Article I, $10, the 2nd Amendment, and the 10th Amendment again. States have the inherent right to organize a militia. Those troops must remain in the State. They are there to defend that State.

we are going to have to agree to disagree.

US Constitution, Article 1, Section 10, clause 3

"No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."

 

[Into the Night]

that's not what it says.

" the freedom of the people to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed."

Not what it says:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The 2nd amendment is clearly talking about two related rights of self defense.
1) The inherent right of State to defend itself.
2) The inherent right of an individual to defend himself.

You cannot use the 2nd amendment to discard the 2nd amendment.

 

[Into the Night]

yes. it is.

No, it isn't. The 'unorganized militia' (whatever THAT is) is not discussed or mentioned in the 2nd amendment.

 

[Into the Night]

Our Second Amendment is clear as to what is Necessary.

You cannot use the 2nd amendment to discard the 2nd amendment.

 

[Into the Night]

Our Second Amendment is clear; the End justifies the Means.

The 2nd amendment does not describe any 'end' or means.
You cannot alter the 2nd amendment or any other part of the constitution arbitrarily.

 

[Into the Night]

the ends justify the means is something psychotic totalitarians believe in.

It's also a cliche. The 2nd amendment discusses no 'ends' or means.

 

[Into the Night]

the Illinois right to bear arms is not relevant to the 2nd Amendment. Can you explain how the Bill of Rights has 9 Amendments that specifically refers to the rights of the people, yet somehow the 2nd applies to ONLY your 'well regulated' or government controlled militia????? Because I can cite numerous ratification era comments/quotes that we the people clearly understood that the right to bear arms belongs to all individuals

You can also cite quite a few State constitutions. He even quoted the Illinois Constitution to try to cancel the 2nd amendment.

 

[Into the Night]

Ok. I agree to disagree. The unorganized militia has already proven itself worthless to the security of any of our free States.

Are you actually trying to argue that the people of a State are worthless to the security of that State???
The 2nd amendment does not discuss the 'unorganized militia'. There is no such phrase in the 2nd amendment.

That is why This matters: ​The defense and protection of the state and of the United States is an obligation of all persons within the state. The legislature shall provide for the discharge of this obligation and for the maintenance and regulation of an organized militia.

You cannot use one portion of a constitution to cancel another.

 

[Into the Night]

yes, it is clear. YOU, however, are misinterpreting it.

No. He is altering it. He is attempting to add various words and phrases to the 2nd amendment in order to justify cancelling the 2nd amendment. This is not misinterpreting it. It is denying it, and with it, the rest of the Constitution of the United States. It is also denying the Constitution of the State of Illinois.

 

[danielpalos]

Are you actually trying to argue that the people of a State are worthless to the security of that State???
The 2nd amendment does not discuss the 'unorganized militia'. There is no such phrase in the 2nd amendment.

You cannot use one portion of a constitution to cancel another.

Isn't right-wing fantasy wonderful. There is no appeal to ignorance of the law.

 

[Into the Night]

Isn't right-wing fantasy wonderful.

Inversion fallacy. You are describing Democrats again.

 

[Into the Night]

Yes it is, because our Second Amendment clearly secures that State's sovereign right.

You cannot discard half of the 2nd amendment.

 

[Into the Night]

US Constitution, Article 1, Section 10, clause 3

"No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."

sorry, but NO!. As a former resident of Illinois myself, your viewpoint and understanding of the Illinois Constitution is either misguided or purposefully misinterpreted.

Read that section again, along with section 8, the 2nd amendment, and the 10th amendment.

 

[Into the Night]

Subject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. (Illinois State Constitution)

Define 'police power'. The Illinois State Constitution doesn't.
Apparently you don't know what 'individual citizen' means. Apparently you don't know what 'people' means either.

The State if Illinois, like every State in the Union, is subject to the 2nd amendment. That amendment applies to both federal and State governments.

You cannot use the 2nd amendment to cancel the 2nd amendment, nor Article I, $22 of the Illinois State constitution to cancel the 2nd amendment.

 

[danielpalos]

You cannot discard half of the 2nd amendment.

The End justifies the Means not the reverse.