Is the Repub party finished?

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

So you think the (R) party should throw away fiscal conservatives if they aren't also social conservatives? You do realize that being fiscally conservative and socially conservative is the hypocritical anti freedom group right? These are the only people you want in your party? If so great but don't expect to get elected to anything.

Not really, I think our social conservative wing needs to counter the extremist rhetoric from the left better than they have the past decade. They have been called every name in the book, and some new ones especially created just for them! For the most part, social conservatives are anything BUT 'anti-freedom', in fact, they are the ones who promote freedom... allow us to vote on the issue of abortion and gay marriage, as opposed to appointing judges who invoke liberal ideology on us against our will. How can you be more for "freedom" than that? Let the people decide!

In other areas, I think social conservatives need to take a more 'libertarian' approach to the matter, get the 'government' out of it completely, and let people make up their own minds on these issues. Certain issues can be updated and revised from positions past, like 'abstinence only' education programs, might also include or incorporate 'birth control' education too... instead of a staunch anti 'gay marriage' initiative, present a legitimate argument for comprehensive civil unions legislation which addresses the needs of gay couples without encroaching on conservative religious values. In other words, package the 'social conservatism' in a more desirable way to the younger generation of voters, and update it for the times. Combat the 'image' created and propagated by liberals, with very sensible and desirable alternatives to SOLVE these problems, not keep them churned up year after year for political gain, as has been the practice on both sides for the past decade.

 

[Cancel3]

Not really, I think our social conservative wing needs to counter the extremist rhetoric from the left better than they have the past decade. They have been called every name in the book, and some new ones especially created just for them! For the most part, social conservatives are anything BUT 'anti-freedom', in fact, they are the ones who promote freedom... allow us to vote on the issue of abortion and gay marriage, as opposed to appointing judges who invoke liberal ideology on us against our will. How can you be more for "freedom" than that? Let the people decide!

In other areas, I think social conservatives need to take a more 'libertarian' approach to the matter, get the 'government' out of it completely, and let people make up their own minds on these issues. Certain issues can be updated and revised from positions past, like 'abstinence only' education programs, might also include or incorporate 'birth control' education too... instead of a staunch anti 'gay marriage' initiative, present a legitimate argument for comprehensive civil unions legislation which addresses the needs of gay couples without encroaching on conservative religious values. In other words, package the 'social conservatism' in a more desirable way to the younger generation of voters, and update it for the times. Combat the 'image' created and propagated by liberals, with very sensible and desirable alternatives to SOLVE these problems, not keep them churned up year after year for political gain, as has been the practice on both sides for the past decade.

"allow us to vote on the issue of abortion and gay marriage, as opposed to appointing judges who invoke liberal ideology on us against our will. How can you be more for "freedom" than that? Let the people decide"

So we let the mob rule decide social issues? The US Constitution does not take into account any "let the people decide" on the laws except in the case of Constitutional amendments. There are a lot of causes that are right but the majority will not back. The civil rights movement in the 50s & 60s would never have made it by popular vote.

In fact, at no time during the Revolutionary War were the majority of citizens in favor of complete separation from England.




"present a legitimate argument for comprehensive civil unions legislation which addresses the needs of gay couples without encroaching on conservative religious values."

Screw your religious values. Those values have done nothing but keep people down. They have been used by every oppressive group from the KKK to the anti-gay crowd. These so called "religious values" have absolutely no place in creating ANY laws. In fact, using those religious values as a basis for creating or maintaining law is a violation of the US Constitution.

Its what got Judge Roy Moore removed from the bench and it will continue to be removed as time goes onward.

And I was one of those who circulated petitions and called politicians to make sure Roy Moore lost that battle. And I am proud of that fact.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I think she is just saying it was funded and pushed by them which is true. Same thing happened in AZ. It was for the most part funded by them.

still as dumb argument on her part. both sides of prop 8 raised about the same amount of money. In the end people voted based on their personal views on the issue. The fact of the matter is that many of Obamas supporters did not simply 'go to vote just for Obama and not the ballot measures' as she orginally claimed. The polls showed that all races voted against gay marriage. The additional salt in wound came from the fact that Obama brought out higher numbers of black voters to the polls and they voted overwhelmingly FOR prop 8.

 

[DamnYankee]

Well, let's set aside the fact that you have a very thin skin; do you have any refutation at all for the stats I provided regarding the youth vote, or are you willing to admit that you were a bit off in saying that Obama "hasn't changed the ratio"?

Actually I have very thick skin. That's why I'm sticking to the facts instead of engaging you with insults. Do you have that stat about JFK?

 

[DamnYankee]

By the way Dixie. You already purged the modererates. Which is why me and a bunch of others went and voted for Obama. If you want to somehow purge more and lose by more. Go right ahead but I don't think that will get (R)s elected.

Gee, wasn't Mickey the ultimate compromiser-maverick-moderate? Apparently nominating someone like that isn't the best way to win elections.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I honestly don't know. Many of us that have chosen GOP over Libertarian Party says more about the Libertarian candidates than ourselves. If there were motivated people locally to groom some candidates for 2010, then 2012 it's possible to have a good run, of course splitting those votes for a Democrat walk in, regardless of performance. If nothing really bad happens before 2010, it's possible.

In actuality I think the easier road would be if the GOP recognized that there is a serious need to define itself on the issues, not the evangelical pandering they've been doing. Stop slamming the American people. That's just not good politics.

Did he even mention the LP? The LP will never be a major national force. They are too ideologically narrow and too extreme.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Just going in and speaking to them about those issues coupled with school vouchers (both are popular among those groups) would siphon off that 3 to 5%.

Vouchers aren't extremely popular Damo. I dunno, it's possible a majority supports them, but it's not exactly a winning issue.

 

[Blackflag]

Also Dixie, abortion was just put to the vote and lost in SD and CO.

 

[Onceler]

Actually I have very thick skin. That's why I'm sticking to the facts instead of engaging you with insults. Do you have that stat about JFK?

I don't have the stat for the JFK election. My contention is that an election almost 50 years ago has very little to do with an argument that "Democrats usually get more of the youth vote, and Obama didn't change that ratio."

Is your argument that Obama hasn't changed the ratio from the election in 1960, without regard to elections over the past 3 decades? If that's your argument, I stand corrected; you're spot on w/ that.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

1. No I don't see blacks switching over to the GOP, and this is an issue which continues to stump conservatives of all color. As we see, most are socially conservative, but apparently this is overridden by the handouts reaped upon them by liberals. Bush made a small dent in the bloc by addressing "soft bigotry", but by increasing support of Africa may have actually reversed his gain.

2. Young folks typically vote Democrat. Obama didn't effect that ratio, and he didn't increase their participation.

3. Clinton was smart enough to ignore his wife and instead listen to Uncle Greenspan and continue the Reagan economic plan. In fact he did better on that in some ways than Bush 41. The country was tired of his social liberalism though and especially the Hillary scandals.

That's not true. Reagan won the youth vote, and it foretold the current conservative era. We definitely aren't going back to the liberalism of the FDR era, but conservatism has taken a massive setback and it looks like we're heading into a moderate era.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Keep trying to force Americans to accept this intrusion into their core value system. Please make it the centerpiece of the Democrat campaign 2010. Please keep equating it to Civil Rights and racial discrimination.

We will. You're kind are going the way of the white nationalists. Don't let the door hit ya where the lord split ya.

 

[Socrtease]

Why do you insist upon blaming small groups for the outcome. The black population voted against gay marriage by a two to one margin. To pretend that they are not a large part of the reason Prop 8 passed is ignorant at best. Not to mention that Prop 8 passed every single group... white, hispanic, black, asian etc...

To blame the Mormon church is nothing more than ignorance on your part.

So the 100 million dollars LDS spent on Prop 8 ads had no effect?

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Bingo. Fiscal conservatism has much broader appeal than the kind of social conservatism/intrusion currently being espoused by the leaders of the GOP's right wing.

Exactly. Reagan ran on cutting spending. He didn't run on getting rid of gays. It wasn't until the "Republican Revolution" that social conservatism became such a huge issue, and now it's all they are running on.

Fiscal conservatism, and fiscal conservatism alone, is the alone ways the Republicans can ever hope to win anything outside of the south.

 

[evince]

Why do you insist upon blaming small groups for the outcome. The black population voted against gay marriage by a two to one margin. To pretend that they are not a large part of the reason Prop 8 passed is ignorant at best. Not to mention that Prop 8 passed every single group... white, hispanic, black, asian etc...

To blame the Mormon church is nothing more than ignorance on your part.

No the Morman church sank serious amounts of money on this issue.

I think without the money they sank into this issue you would have seen a different result.

Hopefully this bullshit will fail in the courts.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

So the 100 million dollars LDS spent on Prop 8 ads had no effect?

The LA times stated that both sides spent insane amounts of money. It also suggested that the amounts were about even. So no... I don't think either side swayed a lot of voters.

That said, I am surprised that it passed.

"The Proposition 8 battle has emerged as the most expensive of all of this year's ballot measure campaigns, and has aroused strong passions on both sides. As of Wednesday, Yes on 8 campaign committees had raised $26.7 million while the No on 8 committees had brought in $26.1 million"

Not sure where you got the $100mm number from, but would be interested in seeing it.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

No the Morman church sank serious amounts of money on this issue.

I think without the money they sunk into this issue you would have seen a different result.

Hopefully this bullshit will fail in the courts.

While I share your hope in that it will ultimately fail, the fact of the matter is that BOTH sides spent a lot of money on this campaign. To suggest that one side of the argument effected voters to any great extent when both spent about the same amount of money is silly. Bottom line, this is an issue that the vast majority of people have already made up their minds as to where they stand.

Using the claim that 'without the money' things would have been different could just as easily be applied to the Obama campaign. Had they not outspent McCain 4-1 you could have also seen 'a different result'.

 

[Damocles]

Vouchers aren't extremely popular Damo. I dunno, it's possible a majority supports them, but it's not exactly a winning issue.

You are wrong.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9504E0DD1631F935A15751C0A9649C8B63

It is supported by a large amount of the minority populations. And when did 3 to 5 percent suddenly mean it has to be "extremely" popular? It is supported by a majority of Urban African Americans.

The reality is the group of people vouchers would help the most are the ones being ignored when people begin speaking in support of them.

 

[Socrtease]

The LA times stated that both sides spent insane amounts of money. It also suggested that the amounts were about even. So no... I don't think either side swayed a lot of voters.

That said, I am surprised that it passed.

"The Proposition 8 battle has emerged as the most expensive of all of this year's ballot measure campaigns, and has aroused strong passions on both sides. As of Wednesday, Yes on 8 campaign committees had raised $26.7 million while the No on 8 committees had brought in $26.1 million"

Not sure where you got the $100mm number from, but would be interested in seeing it.

YOu are right it was not 100 million. I got that number from a friend and didn't think he would just make shit up. The mormon church donated 20 million to the Prop 8 initiative according to http://blog.themonastery.org/2008/10/20m-mormon-money-behind-prop-8.html

 

[DamnYankee]

That's not true. Reagan won the youth vote, and it foretold the current conservative era. .....

Reagan won the youth vote because we hated Carter back then. We had high unemployment, high inflation, high fuel costs, and high interest rates. For a young man just starting his career and trying to pay off college loans, buy a car and a house and start a life I can tell you that Carter didn't make my life easy.

Carter II will do the same thing for this generation's youth. Bring on the Obama economic liberalism!

 

[Cancel7]

the preachers were preaching against this in the churches...black and white, mormon and christian.

this is a religion problem.