Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama

[Iolo/Penderyn]

Exactly Wilberforce & Wesley, not high church/s...

This conflict (slavery & serfdom), @ least IMHO has existed from long ago..

A drama or passion play of economics, power/politics & morality..

Agreed, though it's worth mentioning that a lot of very high Churchmen in the UK were pretty solid socialists. There are tensions and contradictions everywhere. Even the current Pope sometimes shows an interest in Christian behaviour!

 

[Dutch Uncle]

My nuns told me that they conquered by the sword
---because it was their duty do what is explicitly written.

To do what is explicitly written, is to carry a defiant banner of zealots,
but the most pro-active of the lot speak explicitly what its means & ends are
---where you must take it and can't leave it, and it's an offer you can't refuse.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. As for sword, the Bible, once again, is contradictory. Jesus says buy a sword in Luke 22:36-38, which contradicts "turn the other cheek", the Sermon on the Mount and Matthew 26:52 "for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword".

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Agreed, though it's worth mentioning that a lot of very high Churchmen in the UK were pretty solid socialists. There are tensions and contradictions everywhere. Even the current Pope sometimes shows an interest in Christian behaviour!

Probably because Jesus was a socialist.

The RWNJs and/or Satanists will say "bu..bu...but Socialism didn't exist 2000 years ago you demmycunt! Fuck you and burn in Hell, cunt!!!!", but the fact remains that Jesus put spiritual "wealth" ahead of material wealth. Jesus recognized that material wealth is temporary but one's soul is eternal.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

Probably because Jesus was a socialist.

The RWNJs and/or Satanists will say "bu..bu...but Socialism didn't exist 2000 years ago you demmycunt! Fuck you and burn in Hell, cunt!!!!", but the fact remains that Jesus put spiritual "wealth" ahead of material wealth. Jesus recognized that material wealth is temporary but one's soul is eternal.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

And if you read Acts, you find that the early Church was doing its best with 'to each according to his/her need, from each according to his/her ability'.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

And if you read Acts, you find that the early Church was doing its best with 'to each according to his/her need, from each according to his/her ability'.

Which is quite different from those like Paula White who believe in "Prosperity Theology"....and, worth only $5,000,000, is relatively poor compared to other pastors.

https://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/authors/paula-white-net-worth/
Paula White Net Worth: $5 Million

https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/8-richest-pastors-in-america.aspx
Kenneth Copeland: Net Worth $760 Million

Pat Robertson: Net Worth $100 Million

Benny Hinn: Net Worth $42 Million

Joel Osteen: Net Worth $40 Million

Creflo Dollar: Net Worth $27 Million

 

[StoneByStone]

I've already asked you to please quote any words of Jesus that support slavery, (and come to that queer-bashing or male supremacy). Please do that thing if we are to continue this conversation.

And I already said Jesus didn't mention slavery or homosexuality. However, he did say that the old laws are still to be followed, and the old laws included slavery and homophobia.

 

[StoneByStone]

I pity those who try to say Christianity condones slavery.......they speak from their imagination rather than truth......

 

[StoneByStone]

Yes or not. They have the capacity to choose. Atheism influences how people think and do things, yes? Socialism? Capitalism? A philosophy book? Plato's "The Republic"?

Yes. So it's fair game to say any of those things are negative if they contain bad philosophy and have a history of influencing people in a bad way, like Christianity.

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

And I already said Jesus didn't mention slavery or homosexuality. However, he did say that the old laws are still to be followed, and the old laws included slavery and homophobia.

I'm no expert on Judaism, and I think we might argue about what Jewish law enforced slavery. I think the key point, though, is that Jesus tended to go - as with the Sabbath and such - for what the old laws were trying to say. While I take your point about this, it is a bit like my own commitment to UK law: I am not in a campaign to overthrow law, but if I had any hand in it its interpretation and application would be very, very different. Just illustration, I hasten to add. I am hardly in the appropriate league for serious comparison!

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Yes. So it's fair game to say any of those things are negative if they contain bad philosophy and have a history of influencing people in a bad way, like Christianity.

Nice dodge. Perhaps you should consider the maxim "Throwing the baby out with the bath water".

 

[Cypress]

I've already asked you to please quote any words of Jesus that support slavery, (and come to that queer-bashing or male supremacy). Please do that thing if we are to continue this conversation.

The fact that there is sin in this world (e g. slavery) does not mean that is God's intent.

- Saint Augustine, 4th century.


A lot of pagans dismissed Christianity as a religion of women and slaves. Those two groups in particular were attracted to Christ's implicit message of spiritual equality, dignity, and personal salvation.

 

[StoneByStone]

I'm no expert on Judaism, and I think we might argue about what Jewish law enforced slavery. I think the key point, though, is that Jesus tended to go - as with the Sabbath and such - for what the old laws were trying to say. While I take your point about this, it is a bit like my own commitment to UK law: I am not in a campaign to overthrow law, but if I had any hand in it its interpretation and application would be very, very different. Just illustration, I hasten to add. I am hardly in the appropriate league for serious comparison!

By "the old laws," Jesus was referring to the religious teachings of Judaism, not the actual laws of the state. Remember, at the time the Jews were living under the Roman Empire, but Jesus regularly taught things that went against the laws and norms of the Empire, even if he didn't advocate deliberate breaking of these laws.
Now Jewish laws didn't enforce slavery, there were Jews who simply chose not to own a slave, but the laws did say what you could and couldn't do with slaves. This means that Jesus believed in laws regarding what you can do with a slave instead of just saying fuck all these laws, slavery is wrong. There were also different laws depending on the race of the slaves, as Jews were able to treat slaves that weren't Jewish a lot worse. So, racism too.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The fact that there is sin in this world (e g. slavery) does not mean that is God's intent.

- Saint Augustine, 4th century.


A lot of pagans dismissed Christianity as a religion of women and slaves. Those two groups in particular were attracted to Christ's implicit message of spiritual equality, dignity, and personal salvation.

Agreed, which goes back to the point of not blaming either God or religion for the actions of men...even those who claim they are doing it in the name of God or religion.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed, which goes back to the point of not blaming either God or religion for the actions of men...even those who claim they are doing it in the name of God or religion.

I make a point to blame neither God nor Islam for mass murder committed by gangs of criminal terrorists claiming to act with God's sanction.

I have been attempting to apply that same standard to all religions.

There is a place for legitimate scholarly critique of the New Testament, and the historicity of events described therein. I have contributed to those discussions

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I make a point to blame neither God nor Islam for mass murder committed by gangs of criminal terrorists claiming to act with God's sanction.

I have been attempting to apply that same standard to all religions.

There is a place for legitimate scholarly critique of the New Testament, and the historicity of events described therein. I have contributed to those discussions

Good plan. Same goes for political beliefs too.

Critiquing if fine. Broad-brushing with hateful rhetoric is not.

I really don't get this whole "I'm not Christian but I respect Christianity" thing. All religion is stupid, but religions like Christianity and Islam preach that if you don't worship a god that is literally a mass murderer, then you get punished for eternity. These are not religions that produce a healthy mindset.
I don't know if Jesus ever really existed, but if he did, he wasn't a great teacher or spiritual leader. He was probably mentally ill and preached tyranny.

 

[StoneByStone]

Good plan. Same goes for political beliefs too.

Critiquing if fine. Broad-brushing with hateful rhetoric is not.

I don't see what's hateful about what I said. I didn't say religious people should be oppressed or anything like that. But I will criticize belief systems that I see as dangerous. I've also criticized Marxism here, doesn't mean I hate all Marxists.

 

[StoneByStone]

Nice dodge.

How on Earth is that a dodge?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't see what's hateful about what I said. I didn't say religious people should be oppressed or anything like that. But I will criticize belief systems that I see as dangerous. I've also criticized Marxism here, doesn't mean I hate all Marxists.

Obviously. Racists and antisemitics don't see anything hateful in what they say. They claim it's the truth when they claim certain races are lazy and shiftless or that certain religions drink the blood of others. Same goes for anyone making false claims about religions or races.

I really don't get this whole "I'm not Christian but I respect Christianity" thing. All religion is stupid, but religions like Christianity and Islam preach that if you don't worship a god that is literally a mass murderer, then you get punished for eternity. These are not religions that produce a healthy mindset.
I don't know if Jesus ever really existed, but if he did, he wasn't a great teacher or spiritual leader. He was probably mentally ill and preached tyranny.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

How on Earth is that a dodge?

Are you agreeing that atheism, socialism and/or Satanism negatively influence people? You dodged my point: People have choices. Inaminate things do not "influence" people. People choose how they wish to act.

Example: Neither religion nor politics make people malicious and/or crazy; malicious and/or crazy people are attracted to religion and/or politics to justify their actions. An inanimate object cannot affect a human being at all unless it falls on them....usually because another human being hit them with it.

 

[StoneByStone]

Obviously. Racists and antisemitics don't see anything hateful in what they say. They claim it's the truth when they claim certain races are lazy and shiftless or that certain religions drink the blood of others. Same goes for anyone making false claims about religions or races.

Except that I didn't say anything false about any religion. Yahweh, the god of Judaism and Christianity, is portrayed as a mass murderer. Not sure how that's racist.