Jesus and Siddhartha Gautama

Penderyn said:
Have you ever read the New Testament? Do so, and then read some mythological stories. The fantasy bits in the Gospels are clearly read back from the notion that Jesus was the Messiah and therefore must fulfil the prophecies. Read The Apology and ask yourself if Socrates belief in his Daemon renders this 'mythological', and then try what Buddha has to say, and see whether he existed. Mythological figures don't come out with things like the Sermon on the Mount, nor do may people die for them.
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I know a lot about the NT. It was my research into textual criticism that made me renounce religion and become an atheist.

People die for silly causes all the time. Look at how many people die for Islam.
 
Michael_Panetta said:
I know a lot about the NT. It was my research into textual criticism that made me renounce religion and become an atheist.

People die for silly causes all the time. Look at how many people die for Islam.
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There's a big difference between being an atheist and renouncing religion.

Agreed, people die for silly causes all the time. Most are nuts.

Posted previously:
Dutch Uncle said:
...Neither religion nor politics make people malicious and/or crazy; malicious and/or crazy people are attracted to religion and/or politics to justify their actions. An inanimate object cannot affect a human being at all unless it falls on them....usually because another human being hit them with it.
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StoneByStone said:
Like I said, he didn't address those things specifically. But he did say that the old Jewish laws, which allowed slavery and didn't allow homosexuality, still stand in the eyes of Yahweh.

Imagine if someone said "I agree with all of the American laws" but didn't specifically mention alcohol being legal. You'd still know this person favored alcohol legality, because alcohol is legal in America.
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Where does Jesus say, 'I agree with the Jewish law as interpreted by the Sanhedrin or the Pharisees'? Amongst cranky McCarthyites, who would say, 'I think a great deal of American law is horseshit?' I honestly think you take all this Jahweh stuff far too seriously.
 
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Michael_Panetta said:
I know a lot about the NT. It was my research into textual criticism that made me renounce religion and become an atheist.

People die for silly causes all the time. Look at how many people die for Islam.
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Your views of religion are , like mine, entirely your own business, and I think you are assuming I have views other than I in fact have. What I'm saying is that, in mythological material, people don't give extended arguments. Leave Christianity alone and compare Homer and The Apology. There are at least two views of Socrates, but clearly a real person is being described, and the same is true of Jesus of Nazareth. The mythological material is all the Christmas-type stuff, clearly added to fill a gap about which no-one knew much, if anything.
 
Penderyn said:
Your views of religion are , like mine, entirely your own business, and I think you are assuming I have views other than I in fact have. What I'm saying is that, in mythological material, people don't give extended arguments. Leave Christianity alone and compare Homer and The Apology. There are at least two views of Socrates, but clearly a real person is being described, and the same is true of Jesus of Nazareth. The mythological material is all the Christmas-type stuff, clearly added to fill a gap about which no-one knew much, if anything.
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Christianity posits that, 2,000 years ago, a Jewish zombie floated into the clouds to "atone" for the sin of a woman who had been fooled by a talking serpent into eating forbidden magical fruit.
 
Michael_Panetta said:
Christianity posits that, 2,000 years ago, a Jewish zombie floated into the clouds to "atone" for the sin of a woman who had been fooled by a talking serpent into eating forbidden magical fruit.
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Well, if that's what you think you're rejecting, you do well. I think that, if you pay attention to what Jesus said, the matter becomes a great deal more interesting. I'm afraid you must have started off amongst American 'Christians'.
 
Penderyn said:
Well, if that's what you think you're rejecting, you do well. I think that, if you pay attention to what Jesus said, the matter becomes a great deal more interesting. I'm afraid you must have started off amongst American 'Christians'.
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I am certain I know more about Christianity than you do.
 
Michael_Panetta said:
I am certain I know more about Christianity than you do.
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You know more about a primitive religion of your own, possibly. Who believes it, and on what basis? You seem to believe some major novelist made up Jesus and what he says, but if so, his existence has been suppressed, so we can't admire him as he deserves, whereas we can admire Plato and believe Socrates existed. If you really think any mediaeval popes had the creativity to make up Jesus, you are a man of true faith after all! :)
 
Penderyn said:
You know more about a primitive religion of your own, possibly. Who believes it, and on what basis? You seem to believe some major novelist made up Jesus and what he says, but if so, his existence has been suppressed, so we can't admire him as he deserves, whereas we can admire Plato and believe Socrates existed. If you really think any mediaeval popes had the creativity to make up Jesus, you are a man of true faith after all! :)
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I'm not trying to be offensive here. I was brought up as a fairly High Church Anglican Christian Socialist, and always tended to take the whole Old Testament with more than thirteen pinches of salt. What people mean by 'Christianity' can be very various. To my mind, it was a combination of the preaching - and action - of Jesus, a person who'd experienced a remarkably flowering of highly unorthodox Judaism, and Paul's interpretation of it - the interpretation of a Roman citizen with very Romanised views about 'divinity' and such. I find them both very interesting, but Jesus hugely more so, and wasting time at this late date arguing about 'religion' seems to me a pity.
 
Penderyn said:
You know more about a primitive religion of your own, possibly. Who believes it, and on what basis? You seem to believe some major novelist made up Jesus and what he says, but if so, his existence has been suppressed, so we can't admire him as he deserves, whereas we can admire Plato and believe Socrates existed. If you really think any mediaeval popes had the creativity to make up Jesus, you are a man of true faith after all! :)
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I don't believe that "medieval popes made up Jesus." Jesus is a first-century myth.
 
Penderyn said:
Where does Jesus say, 'I agree with the Jewish law as interpreted by the Sanhedrin or the Pharisees'? Amongst cranky McCarthyites, who would say, 'I think a great deal of American law is horseshit?' I honestly think you take all this Jahweh stuff far too seriously.
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"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:18-19)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17)

Jesus made it as clear as possible that he believes the laws of Judaism still apply even though he has filled the prophecy of the messiah.
And what do you mean I take this Yahweh stuff too seriously? I'm not saying I believe in Christianity, I'm saying this is what Christianity says.
 
StoneByStone said:
"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:18-19)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17)

Jesus made it as clear as possible that he believes the laws of Judaism still apply even though he has filled the prophecy of the messiah.
And what do you mean I take this Yahweh stuff too seriously? I'm not saying I believe in Christianity, I'm saying this is what Christianity says.
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Which of the Commandments lays down slavery? Where exactly should I look for this Law that is other than the Commandments? Don't you think perhaps the Law was made for Man, not Man for the Law? Why, if this were what Jesus said and meant, was Paul able to build the Church on uncircumcised gentiles, do you suppose? I think all you Jesus-eliminators take Churches a lot more seriously than I do, and are throwing away an extremely interesting baby with some very old and smelly bathwater.
 
Penderyn said:
Which of the Commandments lays down slavery? Where exactly should I look for this Law that is other than the Commandments? Don't you think perhaps the Law was made for Man, not Man for the Law? Why, if this were what Jesus said and meant, was Paul able to build the Church on uncircumcised gentiles, do you suppose? I think all you Jesus-eliminators take Churches a lot more seriously than I do, and are throwing away an extremely interesting baby with some very old and smelly bathwater.
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I didn't say slavery was one of the Commandments. The Old Testament lays out lots of Yahweh's rules throughout.
Like I mentioned earlier, the Bible is full of contradictions. But the fact that the Bible is pro-slavery pretty consistently made it a good tool for leaders to use to promote slavery. And that is why slavery was common under Christian Theocracy and did not end until after the Enlightenment.
 
StoneByStone said:
I didn't say slavery was one of the Commandments. The Old Testament lays out lots of Yahweh's rules throughout.
Like I mentioned earlier, the Bible is full of contradictions. But the fact that the Bible is pro-slavery pretty consistently made it a good tool for leaders to use to promote slavery. And that is why slavery was common under Christian Theocracy and did not end until after the Enlightenment.
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Well, there was a strong movement in the early Church to ditch the Old Testament as more than interesting reading, but I suppose the need to convert Jewish people was too strong. Why do you suppose the Normans got rid of slavery when they conquered the Germanised part of Britain then? As followers of the Enlightenment they lack conviction! :)
 
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Penderyn said:
Your'e a man of even greater faith then. Who made him up, and for what purpose? How did it help the Roman tyranny or the Jewish Quislings?
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Where to begin? He was an organic myth. The Jesus story evolved over time in the early Christian communities. For instance, the author of Mark's gospel had no knowledge of the Virgin Birth myth addition to the Jesus story (a myth common in ancient times for "validating" a leader or significant person). He even directly contradicts it when he has Mary and the rest of Jesus' family try to stop him from preaching because they thought he was mad.
 
Michael_Panetta said:
Where to begin? He was an organic myth. The Jesus story evolved over time in the early Christian communities. For instance, the author of Mark's gospel had no knowledge of the Virgin Birth myth addition to the Jesus story (a myth common in ancient times for "validating" a leader or significant person). He even directly contradicts it when he has Mary and the rest of Jesus' family try to stop him from preaching because they thought he was mad.
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Where did the early Christian communities come from then, Mars? What did Jesus say about Virgin Birth? He said nothing whatever, so this , like fantasies about stars and wise men from the East etcetera etcetera etcetera is noting to do with rational understanding of history and entirely irrelevant.
 
Penderyn said:
Where did the early Christian communities come from then, Mars? What did Jesus say about Virgin Birth? He said nothing whatever, so this , like fantasies about stars and wise men from the East etcetera etcetera etcetera is noting to do with rational understanding of history and entirely irrelevant.
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If you strip away the mythological aspects of the Jesus story, you're left with "teachings" that appear to have been copied from a text called "The Book of Enoch," which was written about a century prior. A lot of Jesus' sayings are directly from that text. It's clear that the early Jesus believers created him from a hodgepodge of sources.

Why doesn't Philo of Alexandra mention Jesus? He was a first-century Jewish writer who wrote about the most minute happenings in Jerusalem. Why is he silent on Jesus? He talks about Pilate and Herod and other people, but is silent about the miracle man who spent three years wandering Israel and allegedly had thousands of followers.
 
Michael_Panetta said:
If you strip away the mythological aspects of the Jesus story, you're left with "teachings" that appear to have been copied from a text called "The Book of Enoch," which was written about a century prior. A lot of Jesus' sayings are directly from that text. It's clear that the early Jesus believers created him from a hodgepodge of sources.

Why doesn't Philo of Alexandra mention Jesus? He was a first-century Jewish writer who wrote about the most minute happenings in Jerusalem. Why is he silent on Jesus? He talks about Pilate and Herod and other people, but is silent about the miracle man who spent three years wandering Israel and allegedly had thousands of followers.
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Militant in-your-face atheists bug me almost as much as bible thumping fundamentalist Christian jihadists.

If you do not want to accept the historicity of Jesus, you don't have to make it a point to belittle and insult those who do. The vast majority of historical scholars consider the evidence for the historical Jesus to be virtually unimpeachable.

If you do not want to partake in Christian faith, what is the point of embarking a belligerent jihad to get others to accept your atheism?

Religious spirituality is a personal choice. If nothing else, I know of people for whom a devout Christian faith sustained them through their darkest days in the Gulag in a way that Voltaire's Candide, Isaac Newton's Principia, or Darwin's Origin of Species never could have.
 
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