Jesus Camp

[Damocles]

Since there are so many religions, isn't atheism more likely than any one religion, Damo?

If it is split equally between every single religion, lack thereof, or indeterminate state out there, is the spaghetti monster as likely as Buddism?

The likelihood that a God does exist as opposed to that of no God exists is what we are speaking of, the number of religions does not factor. If we used such "number evidence" then it would be like...

So many more people believe in God than don't wouldn't it be more likely that a Deity does exist?

And Buddhism is not a religion in that manner. Buddhism in its purest form does not speak for or against a Deity.

 

[Damocles]

Could I be the second Bhudda Damo?

All of us can be a Buddha.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

All of us can be a Buddha.

Ah.

I meant, a Buddha. Of course. Not the second one. That was ignorance.

 

[Damocles]

As an explanation for the creation of the universe, having a God in there just adds one more complication. Occum's razor. Or whatever.

When does a Deity have to use only the Biblical Creation story?

Could not a Deity have used the Big Bang? Then later used Evolution?

This doesn't show anything other than mistaking where the argument I refer to comes from.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

When does a Deity have to use only the Biblical Creation story?

Could not a Deity have used the Big Bang? Then later used Evolution?

This doesn't show anything other than mistaking where the argument I refer to comes from.

If the deity created the big bang or evolution it still adds one more unnecessary complication.

 

[Bonestorm]

However, here you are simply speaking of faith. Science doesn't prove anything at all, it wasn't created to. The pretense of mathematical equation on two different faiths is silly.

One is not more likely than the other because neither have any evidence to support them.

One cannot prove that God doesn't exist any more than one can prove that God does exist.

Which, in your opinion is "more likely"?

This is disingenuous at best. No, I cannot "prove" that God does not exist. Just like I cannot "prove" that a purple unicorn that shits raspberries does not exist. However, it is far more unlikely that God and the purple, raspberry-shitting unicorn exist than otherwise.

 

[Damocles]

If the deity created the big bang or evolution it still adds one more unnecessary complication.

But it doesn't, it simply adds an explanation where none has ever been provided. Occam's razor cannot apply when no relevant explanation can be provided as to the cause of the Big Bang.

 

[Damocles]

This is disingenuous at best. No, I cannot "prove" that God does not exist. Just like I cannot "prove" that a purple unicorn that shits raspberries does not exist. However, it is far more unlikely that God and the purple, raspberry-shitting unicorn exist than otherwise.

It isn't. The reality is we can't know the likelihood of the purple unicorn who craps berries because we have yet to see the nature of life on other planets.

If by "God" you speak only of the Christian Deity, I might agree with you. But by a Deity.

No. There is no real reason a Deity would be interventionalist, therefore most of the "see? he isn't there" crap doesn't fall neatly into an anti argument.

 

[Damocles]

Anyway, for Dung and Watermark. Once you are in an area where any Faith is needed, whether it be for or against any Deity at all, you have to use an equal amount. There is no objective measure of faith.

Even with probability, there is an uncertainty that is built in. Taking the leap from "this much uncertain" to "Fully Believing" takes 100% Faith, no matter the probability before the leap.

That means it takes equal amounts of Faith to believe in one or the other regardless of probability.

Let's use line analogy.

A line is infinite, we'll set unsure of either at zero... The more you go left on the line the more probable there is no god, the more you go right on the line the more probable that there is a God/gods. As you travel along the line you can go on infinitely. To get off the line and into a realm of absolute surety one must take an infinite leap no matter which direction you become "absolutely sure". This makes it absolutely equal, no matter where on the line of probability you were when you made the leap it is an infinite leap.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

But it doesn't, it simply adds an explanation where none has ever been provided. Occam's razor cannot apply when no relevant explanation can be provided as to the cause of the Big Bang.

You're acting like experimental physics hasn't been debating likely explanations that a universe would appear out of nothing. If they eventually come to the conclusion that it also required a deity to appear out of nothing, then we'll talk.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Anyway, for Dung and Watermark. Once you are in an area where any Faith is needed, whether it be for or against any Deity at all, you have to use an equal amount. There is no objective measure of faith.

Even with probability, there is an uncertainty that is built in. Taking the leap from "this much uncertain" to "Fully Believing" takes 100% Faith, no matter the probability before the leap.

That means it takes equal amounts of Faith to believe in one or the other regardless of probability.

Let's use line analogy.

A line is infinite, we'll set unsure of either at zero... The more you go left on the line the more probable there is no god, the more you go right on the line the more probable that there is a God/gods. As you travel along the line you can go on infinitely. To get off the line and into a realm of absolute surety one must take an infinite leap no matter which direction you become "absolutely sure". This makes it absolutely equal, no matter where on the line of probability you were when you made the leap it is an infinite leap.

I'm as certain that there is no deity as I am that there aren't unicorns that shit rasberries living in underground caverns below the oceans.

Hell, there may be secret hidden unicorns. I'm just not going to bet my life on it, as so many preachers seem to do.

 

[Damocles]

You're acting like experimental physics hasn't been debating likely explanations that a universe would appear out of nothing. If they eventually come to the conclusion that it also required a deity to appear out of nothing, then we'll talk.

They have yet come to any reasonable explanation for the cause of the Big Bang. You act as if they have some reasonable and reliable theory on the subject, that is pretense.

However, as I explained above it matters not where on the line of probability you are, it takes exactly the same leap of infinite measure to get to the ream of absolute certainty. Infinite in either direction is exactly an equal leap of Faith.

 

[Damocles]

I'm as certain that there is no deity as I am that there aren't unicorns that shit rasberries living in underground caverns below the oceans.

Hell, there may be secret hidden unicorns. I'm just not going to bet my life on it, as so many preachers seem to do.

Yes, but here you are still in the realm of possibility and "reasonable" certainty. You have not made the leap of absolute.

To get there, from the line of probability, takes an infinite leap regardless of which direction you go.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Most atheists don't take a literally infinite leap. I just don't make a big deal about God.

 

[Damocles]

Most atheists don't take a literally infinite leap. I just don't make a big deal about God.

Right, but "most" doesn't describe the people that I did does it?

 

[LadyT]

Hey! I saw this last night!

Did you see the look on those poor kid's face when the woman was talking about Harry Potter? Its like, "Buuuut I like Harry Potter".

My mom used to try pull stuff like that with me when I was a kid but fortunately my dad was an atheist/agnostic at best and so I had an escape and ally.

 

[Damocles]

Hey! I saw this last night!

Did you see the look on those poor kid's face when the woman was talking about Harry Potter? Its like, "Buuuut I like Harry Potter".

My mom used to try pull stuff like that with me when I was a kid but fortunately my dad was an atheist/agnostic at best and so I had an escape and ally.

How about the kids at the table where the one kid admitted to watching them and the others looked at him like he was an alien life form.

I remember that look when I spoke about my music.

 

[LadyT]

How about the kids at the table where the one kid admitted to watching them and the others looked at him like he was an alien life form.

I remember that look when I spoke about my music.

Or the look on the other kids face when the one kid admitted that some times he doesn't believe the stories in the bible. Man. Poor kids.

My favorite was when the director/teacher was in her closet and said something to the effect of, "A lot of people feel sorry for the kids that have to sit through this for an hour.....but they don't have to feel sorry for mine. Mine have it made".

 

[Socrtease]

Damo, people in celibate populations are more likely to develop deviances that can be "hidden", or acted upon. A pedophile isn't born. He's made. Once someones been made something, it's impossible to change him back, at least in modern knowledge.

The above was a joke.

Actually if you look at the pedophile brain is is distinctly different in its function. There are many pedophiles that were not abused as children nor exposed to inappropriate sexual behavior. Pedophiles in many instances are born.

My dad used to be the parish therapist. He told me that there are many gay males and pedophiles in the priesthood. They went there to escape their urges and desires. For pedophiles that became priests they found themselves with the opportunity to have private access to children and the means to use god to keep them silent.

Now as for this Jesus Camp thing. I watched the replay of Jesus Camp lastnight on A&E and it was exactly what I thought it would be. A training camp not for future christians but for future political christian fascist activists. Early on they show the family saying the pledge of allegiance to the christian flag and the bible and you could tell it was pure rote recitation with NO understanding of what exactly they were saying. Then you have the political training of Jesus Camp. Bringing in cutouts of President Bush (which are probably about on par intellectually with their real life counterparts) and touching him and praying for him. The emotional scaring of 4 and 5 year olds that were being told about abortion. I fell asleep before the end but I bet they got told about the horrors of queers as well. Jesus Camp is camp for the brainwashing of children. Not just to a certain religious belief which I GUESS is acceptable brainwashing but also political brainwashing. The thing that made me laff hardest at the woman who runs the camp was her insistence that had Harry Potter existed in old testament times he would have been killed. I would LOVE to see how the fuck the Jewish people would have killed a FICTIONAL character. I have nothing but contempt for the people that run Jesus Camp and even more contempt for the parents that send their children there. They are creating hateful religious freaks which will, in many cases, be the leaders of the new protestant evangelical church, and teach their followers that they are waging a WAR for Jesus.

 

[Socrtease]

If they aren't meeting with others of the same disbelief regularly and taking classes on how to spread their disbelief better, becoming evangelical and extremely like churchgoers?

Then they would be atheist (small a)...

If they are attending meetings, becoming evangelical, carrying tracts (I've seen them), creating anti-religion websites to "disabuse" those who believe of "incorrect notions" then they become Atheist (big a)... that one is a religion. It takes exactly the same amount of faith to be absolutely sure that there is no God as there does to believe that there is one. When one wants to spread their Faith all over the rest of us they are definitely religious.

This is like saying that it takes exactly the same amount of faith to NOT believe in Santa Claus as it takes to believe in Santa Claus. As for going out and spreading the non word...that is just weird. I am an athiest because for me god is like the gremlin in the clock. You can tell me that the only reason that the clock keeps time is because there is a gremlin inside works his magic to make it keep time but honestly, the positing of the gremlin does not change how the clock keeps time ONE IOTA. All things being equal, I chose to believe the clock works because it's mechanisms were put together correctly. And NO I don't need a clockmaker for the universe either.