Jobs Report - Ouch

[Damocles]

Is that a Freudian slip .. or are you talking about Obama?

No, I was talking about Bush.

Giving these people money to 'fix' the problem is the same thing as voting for Bush because you see we 'need change'.

You wouldn't vote for Bush, but heck throw money at these people!

 

[Onceler]

No, I was talking about Bush.

Giving these people money to 'fix' the problem is the same thing as voting for Bush because you see we 'need change'.

You wouldn't vote for Bush, but heck throw money at these people!

It's not that black & white. First, the amount we're talking about is equivalent to about a month & a half in Iraq. Second, they are forcing the execs hand as far as new plans to make their companies more viable & profitable going forward; I have little doubt that the direction of the companies will change after this.

To tie a bailout to firing executives is even more socialist than the bailout itself.

 

[blackascoal]

No, I was talking about Bush.

Giving these people money to 'fix' the problem is the same thing as voting for Bush because you see we 'need change'.

You wouldn't vote for Bush, but heck throw money at these people!

It was a leftist joke.

I don't advocate throwing money at anyone, but there is precedent for this kind of success .. AND, even more importantly, we're talking about the last remaining manufacturing in America.

Do you not see what this failure will cause?

How do you reconcile a trillion dollars to the rich, no no loan guarantees to one of the last remaining manufacturing industries in America?

In my opinion. allowing these companies to fail has not been well thought out.

The result will be devastating.

Why can't these companies borrow money from the banking industries we just gave a trillion dollars to .. to create such opportunites?

 

[Damocles]

It was a leftist joke.

I don't advocate throwing money at anyone, but there is precedent for this kind of success .. AND, even more importantly, we're talking about the last remaining manufacturing in America.

Do you not see what this failure will cause?

How do you reconcile a trillion dollars to the rich, no no loan guarantees to one of the last remaining manufacturing industries in America?

In my opinion. allowing these companies to fail has not been well thought out.

The result will be devastating.

Why can't these companies borrow money from the banking industries we just gave a trillion dollars to .. to create such opportunites?

One more time. I do not advocate doing nothing. I advocate loaning them the money with the requirement of: firing the failure and hiring people with a record of success for the job rather than proven failures.

And I don't reconcile them. I told people that we needed to slow down and think a bit before we panicked into stupid 'bailouts' that will have no end and will be done poorly because we wait until we hit panic and pass the stupidest rubbish possible.

And back then what was I told? That it was "unfortunately necessary to do it, even if you think it is a bad idea"...

I don't think it is a bad idea to do something, I think it is a bad idea to do something because we are frightened. We make stupid law when we are frightened, look at the PATRIOT Act.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Of course we need to save the auto industry, but you'll never convince some of that. What I don't understand is; where is bush? DH posted a Barney Frank quote earlier, that really said it in a nutshell. To the affect of, Obama keeps stating we only have one president at a time, but that's overstating the number of presidents we have.

Why aren't any republicans here even upset, or even mentioning the fact that your boy has abdicated the Presidency? Unfortuntely, the constitution says he has the job until Jan 20th. That means that the President-elect can't do all that much.

George W Bush should be put in prison, today. that's not hyperbole. That's serious. Arrest him. The country is going down the toilet and I think they're doing it on purpose. But with intent, or not, that's what is happening.

Our system just did not protect us against this man. We have no safeguards in place for this. He's abdicated.

Jail.

Given everything that Bush has screwed up... PLEASE keep him on the sidelines. He can sign whatever agreement Congress comes up with. But do not put him into the mix until his signature is needed.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

SF before you spend your time getting into one of your 100 post back and forth nitpicking bs, why don't you tell us.

George bush has abdicated the presidency at a time of historic danger.

What should be done? I don't mean to the idiots who voted for him twice...we can talk about that later.

What should be done about this fucking man who is destroying this fucking country on his way out SF?

Tell you what, why don't you explain what Bush is doing right now to destroy the country on his way out.

No question, he has screwed up damn near everything he has touched. Which is why I want him on the sidelines. But to blame Bush for everything that is happening is simply partisan bullshit. I have already outlined where all the problems started. True, Bush didn't do anything to correct the mistakes of the past, but neither did any friggin Dem in Congress. Frank a couple of years ago was telling us how safe and secure fannie and freddie were. They are all full of shit.... as is anyone who tries to blame this all on one party or individual.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Uh, re-read your post. You appeared to claim that the autos could do the same thing as the airlines. They can't. I was just attempting to have you understand why you appeared to be wrong.

Apparently you agree with me but that doesn't stop you from calling me names (as usual for you). And while it may be obvious to you that DIP financing from the government (aka a "bailout") is required for a Chapter 11 reorganization, it may not be obvious to everyone (including toppy).

Relax.

and again... yes, they could. If they could get financing, they could file Chapter 11. The whole argument of 'no one will buy a car from a firm in Chapter 11' is nothing more than fear mongering to justify bailing them out.

That said, as I have stated, I think given the state of the economy, it is better to give them a bridge loan now for the benefit of the economy as a whole. So in THESE circumstances, no it is not a good idea to let them go under or file Chapter 11. But to pretend auto companies can't file chapter 11 because no one would buy their cars is just silly.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Yeah, there's no point in getting angry at people like damo and sf. They really don't have any idea. I just hope their tents aren't near mine, you know? That would be too much.

Tell us Darla... what part of "I think they should give the industry the money, but should at the same time get rid of failed managment" do you not understand?

You are letting your emotions get out of control and are failing to read what is being written.

 

[KingCondanomation]

Tell you what, why don't you explain what Bush is doing right now to destroy the country on his way out.

No question, he has screwed up damn near everything he has touched. Which is why I want him on the sidelines. But to blame Bush for everything that is happening is simply partisan bullshit. I have already outlined where all the problems started. True, Bush didn't do anything to correct the mistakes of the past, but neither did any friggin Dem in Congress. Frank a couple of years ago was telling us how safe and secure fannie and freddie were. They are all full of shit.... as is anyone who tries to blame this all on one party or individual.

How many more years do you predict they will blame Bush? My guess is 4 until the next election.

 

[Bonestorm]

and again... yes, they could. If they could get financing, they could file Chapter 11. The whole argument of 'no one will buy a car from a firm in Chapter 11' is nothing more than fear mongering to justify bailing them out.

That said, as I have stated, I think given the state of the economy, it is better to give them a bridge loan now for the benefit of the economy as a whole. So in THESE circumstances, no it is not a good idea to let them go under or file Chapter 11. But to pretend auto companies can't file chapter 11 because no one would buy their cars is just silly.

We're talking past each other at this point but we seem to agree.

I am actually in favor of Chapter 11 for at least GM. What concerns me is that GM won't get the needed financing to make it through Chapter 11 without being converted to a Chapter 7. Hence, federal funds (aka a bailout).

Alternatively, instead of actually going through a Chapter 11 with federal financing putting GM into a receivership where the government can more directly control the outcome (i.e. by firing management).



Edit: Also, I've never made the argument that the autos can't go into any bankruptcy proceeding because no one would buy their cars, but if there was a serious threat to the continued existence of the company (liquidation) I imagine this would be the case.

 

[Damocles]

How many more years do you predict they will blame Bush? My guess is 4 until the next election.

I think they'll be running against Bush for at least five election cycles. Basically 10 years.

 

[Bonestorm]

I think they'll be running against Bush for at least five election cycles. Basically 10 years.

That sounds about right. Clinton was blamed for lots of stuff for a long time and his presidency was a success. Bush, being the incredible failure that he is, should have a much longer shelf life.

 

[Cancel7]

I think they'll be running against Bush for at least five election cycles. Basically 10 years.

Or, you know, at least until his term his finished.

Idiots.

 

[Damocles]

Or, you know, at least until his term his finished.

Idiots.

Whatever. I believe that Bush's unpopularity will make it so saying things like, "You don't want Bush..." when running against any republican will be longstanding and successful.

Hence my prediction that in 2 years they'll still be running against Bush, and for about 5 more election cycles. People do what works. It will continue until it is no longer successful.

You are so desperate to think I'm some sort of evil, that you won't even think before you start spouting off about things anymore. I find that invariably inaccurate, but definitely entertaining.

 

[Cancel7]

Whatever. I believe that Bush's unpopularity will make it so saying things like, "You don't want Bush..." when running against any republican will be longstanding and successful.

Hence my prediction that in 2 years they'll still be running against Bush, and for about 5 more election cycles. People do what works. It will continue until it is no longer successful.

You are so desperate to think I'm some sort of evil, that you won't even think before you start spouting off about things anymore. I find that invariably inaccurate, but definitely entertaining.

It's an incredible display of assholeness to be mocking someone for "still blaming" the current president, which is what you and Dano were doing.

I don't think you're evil, and I don't even dislike you personally, I just think you're a jackass politically.

 

[Damocles]

It's an incredible display of assholeness to be mocking someone for "still blaming" the current president, which is what you and Dano were doing.

I don't think you're evil, and I don't even dislike you personally, I just think you're a jackass politically.

No, I'm an elephant politically.

One that is dissatisfied with the current administration and who has full understanding of the damage he has done to my party.

And I wasn't mocking anybody, I believe that Bush will be mentioned in campaigns for at least 5 more election cycles. It isn't like I am happy about it, but it is what I think will happen.