Liberal Take on American Independence

Minister of Truth

Minister of Truth

Practically Perfect
http://www.vox.com/2015/7/2/8884885/american-revolution-mistake

One giant mistake, basically, which set human rights back by decades.

:britf:

The Left said:
But I'm reasonably confident a world in which the revolution never happened would be better than the one we live in now, for three main reasons: Slavery would've been abolished earlier, American Indians would've faced rampant persecution but not the outright ethnic cleansing Andrew Jackson and other American leaders perpetrated, and America would have a parliamentary system of government that makes policymaking easier and lessens the risk of democratic collapse.
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Independence also enabled acquisition of territory in the West through the Louisiana Purchase and the Mexican-American War. That ensured that America's particularly rapacious brand of colonialism ensnared yet more native peoples
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it also ensured a world power capable of intervening in Europe's stupid wars that became world wars, and beat back the fascism of Germany and Japan.

The article goes on to say slavery would have been abolished maybe 15 years earlier,
and native Americans were still screwed but not as badly/quickly.

What it doesn't mention is the despotic rule of the Crown over the colonies.
Read the Declaration of Independence for details;the reasoning for the American Revolution to begin with

Also inherent in the US is a written Constitution and a Bill of Rights, which guarantees inalienable rights,
and a written body of law that can grow to stare decisis, but also revert back to textualism if the courts go astray.
Considering our ability to self-correct in the areas mentioned -that is a superior system to the British.
 
It's also hard to speculate how British policy would have differed with a loyal America in its pocket. The Empire could have become much more brutish and aggressive.
 
anatta said:
it also ensured a world power capable of intervening in Europe's stupid wars that became world wars, and beat back the fascism of Germany and Japan.

The article goes on to say slavery would have been abolished maybe 15 years earlier,
and native Americans were still screwed but not as badly/quickly.

What it doesn't mention is the despotic rule of the Crown over the colonies.
Read the Declaration of Independence for details;the reasoning for the American Revolution to begin with

Also inherent in the US is a written Constitution and a Bill of Rights, which guarantees inalienable rights,
and a written body of law that can grow to stare decisis, but also revert back to textualism if the courts go astray.
Considering our ability to self-correct in the areas mentioned -that is a superior system to the British.
Click to expand...

Sounds almost noble, well if you are one of those it applied to...........

Most of those the fought were little better off, except now they were allowed to go steal land from the Native Americans.........
 
Bill said:
Sounds almost noble, well if you are one of those it applied to...........

Most of those the fought were little better off, except now they were allowed to go steal land from the Native Americans.........
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it was going to happen -once western civilization crossed the Atlantic the days of Natives were numbered.
Yes it is a noble endeavor. The US was a product of it's times, but unlike many nations grew to right it's wrongs.
Not that we're done or perfected -but we do tend to self correct
 
anatta said:
it was going to happen -once western civilization crossed the Atlantic the days of Natives were numbered.
Yes it is a noble endeavor. The US was a product of it's times, but unlike many nations grew to right it's wrongs.
Not that we're done or perfected -but we do tend to self correct
Click to expand...
Not sure that everyone would agree we have righted our wrongs..
 
Establishment said:
You mean the left? :cof1:
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Probably mostly true but there are conservatives that see them as well...

As an example the Civil Liberties Act of 1988

While the majority of Democrats in Congress voted for the bill, the majority of Republicans voted against it. On September 17, 1987, the U.S. House of Representatives passed the bill by a vote of 243 to 141, with 38 members not voting. The majority of Democrats in the House voted for the bill (180 in favor vs. 43 opposed) while a majority of Republicans voted against it (63 in favor vs. 98 opposed).[13] On April 20, 1988, the U.S. Senate passed the bill by a vote of 69 to 27, with 4 members not voting. A large majority of Democrats voted for the bill (44 in favor vs. 7 opposed), while a more narrow majority of Senate Republicans also voted for the bill (25 in favor vs. 20 opposed).[14]
 
Bill said:
Do you think ppl living on the Red Bud reservation would agree?? What about members of the BLACK LIVES MATTER movement?? 11 million Mexicans or Muslims??
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so far I haven't seen anything but gains in power by Hispanic and black groups.
Florida isn't even a swing state anymore -thanks to the recent influx of Puerto Ricans ( from the Puerto Rico bankruptcy) .

In other words; they are now the power in the "I- corridor" and their overwhelming Dem. registration will in all likelihood determine how FLorida votes in November.
What they do with that power is up to them -but they have it,and they very might well also get Alan Grayson back in the Senate.

as to #blacklivesmatter- is not their goals being accomplished? You had Obama release a bunch of blacks from Fed'l prison
certalinely the concept of black empowerment is being pushed by politicians.
and even the cop killings are down now -because of better training and body cams,

So is this not the American principle of self correcting at work?-it doesn't just have to come from the courts
it come from political power too.

what else do you see that isn't being done for/by minorities? a black POTUS?

I don't see any gross targeting of Muslims..oh sure there are instances - but our ability to assimilate
is far superior to Europe,and while we have Islamic terrorism, it's not on the scale with Europe.

So again America is a better place for religious and racial minorities to live then many parts of the world.
++

I think it is a popular knee jerk leftist idea that somehow the US is this terrible hostile place to such peoples-
when we are clearly not.
 
anatta said:
it was going to happen -once western civilization crossed the Atlantic the days of Natives were numbered.
Yes it is a noble endeavor. The US was a product of it's times, but unlike many nations grew to right it's wrongs.
Not that we're done or perfected -but we do tend to self correct
Click to expand...

Genocide apologist
 
anatta said:
so far I haven't seen anything but gains in power by Hispanic and black groups.
Florida isn't even a swing state anymore -thanks to the recent influx of Puerto Ricans ( from the Puerto Rico bankruptcy) .

In other words; they are now the power in the "I- corridor" and their overwhelming Dem. registration will in all likelihood determine how FLorida votes in November.
What they do with that power is up to them -but they have it,and they very might well also get Alan Grayson back in the Senate.

as to #blacklivesmatter- is not their goals being accomplished? You had Obama release a bunch of blacks from Fed'l prison
certalinely the concept of black empowerment is being pushed by politicians.
and even the cop killings are down now -because of better training and body cams,

So is this not the American principle of self correcting at work?-it doesn't just have to come from the courts
it come from political power too.

what else do you see that isn't being done for/by minorities? a black POTUS?

I don't see any gross targeting of Muslims..oh sure there are instances - but our ability to assimilate
is far superior to Europe,and while we have Islamic terrorism, it's not on the scale with Europe.

So again America is a better place for religious and racial minorities to live then many parts of the world.
++

I think it is a popular knee jerk leftist idea that somehow the US is this terrible hostile place to such peoples-
when we are clearly not.
Click to expand...

ThnX for taking the time to lay out your thoughts..

Rosebud, an unarmed African American is killed by police every day or there about, one of two possible presidents candidates is looking to deport 11 million ppl, harass the hell out of Muslims, & go after their families, torture ppl, etc etc etc...... I see this & the reverb throughout society as regression, not progress..

Not to be cynical but sure we have come a ways but we certainly have a long ways to go, & your turmp will make that road much longer, as he is already doing.........
 
Bill said:
ThnX for taking the time to lay out your thoughts..

Rosebud, an unarmed African American is killed by police every day or there about, one of two possible presidents candidates is looking to deport 11 million ppl, harass the hell out of Muslims, & go after their families, torture ppl, etc etc etc...... I see this & the reverb throughout society as regression, not progress..

Not to be cynical but sure we have come a ways but we certainly have a long ways to go, & your turmp will make that road much longer, as he is already doing.........
Click to expand...
well there are police killings and then their un-just police killings. Unarmed or not, people that flee put themselves at risk.
I'm no fan of rogue cops, but street justice is just that. and I'm not excusing it -cops need to face justice-
but if you wind up dead by fleeing...what did you expect?

But I agree cases like Sandra Bland are horrific, and all we can do is go after the cops.
Hopefully it gets better is my point on self-corrections. a few years ago we weren't even talking about it.

as to Trump? We're never going to agree he has some good ideas. Deportation on a mass scale is never going to happen.
Border security can be improved, but also this notion is out there that the US has an open border is
because we do not just turn people away without due process, and the due process winds up with ridiculous outcomes like
giving illegals summons to appear -along with a bus ticket to a relatives.. how stupid is that?

Illegal entry needs to be treated with the presumption that the entry means a prompt removal.
It's an insult to legal immigrants too -who go thru the process and enter lawfully.

Trump isn't helping though, I agree. his bellicosity makes the issues more difficult to solve
 
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