Dilloduck
Indifferent
What happened to Care ? Looks like she finally saw through the hypocrisy of the DNC.
Michigan Democratic Primary Rules-Certified Vote Changed
- Thread starter Care4all
- Start date
What happened to Care ? Looks like she finally saw through the hypocrisy of the DNC.
That's a lazy, kind of dumb answer. What was hypocritical about the decision this past weekend? Please elaborate.
Nothing has changed with me, nothing! I am as critical of Democrats as I was with Bush and Republicans....
If something is wrong, then something is wrong.
I can't change NOW, just because it is a Democrat doing something that breaks the rules.
I also believe that EVERY VOTE should count, as I DID IN 2000, and that the DNC has no authority to reduce OR STRIP each State's Certified Vote and Delegates.
But setting that aside onceler, even if the votes were to be reduced by half for a sanction, THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED IN MICHIGAN.
What happened in Michigan, is they took the votes that people had actually cast, and reallocated these votes to WHAT THEY WANTED THEM TO BE, they took certified votes and delegates and just MADE UP A NUMBER, and CHANGED the ACTUAL VOTE OF THE PEOPLE THAT VOTED.
that is not democracy, that does not respect the secret ballot, nor the certifications by law....nor the Rules and Regulations of the State of Michigan on how they conduct their Primary election.
WHY is what I am asking, are ALL OF YOU not as upset as me, with what they did...is beyond my comprehension, other than you and the others have been blinded by your affection for your candidate...
leave the candidates out of this...
this is about something the DNC did that goes against any kind of Democratic values....and was also against their own Rules...
you don't see this, because you don't WANT to see this onceler...and this is what is frightening....how much the tables have turned and how much you all are acting like the Bushite's did...especially the way they acted in the 2000 election....you all are even using their same lines that they used about rules and midstream changing and all that GARBAGE that they used in 2000 while we SUPPOSEDLY TOOK THE HIGHER GROUND of saying ALL THE CITIZEN'S VOTES SHOULD COUNT, not some, not who didn't vote....but those that did vote, and most importantly not count by half, BUT ALL...votes that were cast, that could be discerned, by all of the voters, should COUNT....
I just really am pretty dismayed at what is going on here...
Care
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Dilloduck
Indifferent
Counting every vote----do you remember how important that was to the Democrats a few years back. Apparently NOW the DNC doesn't think its all that important.
I knew it. That really IS kind of lazy & dumb.
FL & MI broke the rules, and were sanctioned for it. The votes weren't stripped after they were cast; there was no attempt to deceive voters in either state on what was going to happen. If anything, now they get to seat their delegations, which goes beyond the initial ruling, which the whole party - including Harold Ickes & Hillary - agreed to.
"What happened in Michigan, is they took the votes that people had actually cast, and reallocated these votes to WHAT THEY WANTED THEM TO BE, they took certified votes and delegates and just MADE UP A NUMBER, and CHANGED the ACTUAL VOTE OF THE PEOPLE THAT VOTED."
What were they supposed to do?
Do you really believe all of the delegates from MI should have gone to Hillary?
Even if they did, which is ludicrous, she still loses pretty handily. You're just sour grapes, and can't accept the outcome. She should have worked harder in February, instead of practically conceding all of those states. She should have taken the primary more seriously, instead of triangulating for the general election a year ago.
Stop blaming Obama & DNC; Hillary lost fair & square, no matter how you count FL & MI. It's the Hillary campaign that wants to have a revolving door of metrics until they can find the exact one that gives her the nomination.
What were they supposed to do?
Do you really believe all of the delegates from MI should have gone to Hillary?
Even if they did, which is ludicrous, she still loses pretty handily. You're just sour grapes, and can't accept the outcome. She should have worked harder in February, instead of practically conceding all of those states. She should have taken the primary more seriously, instead of triangulating for the general election a year ago.
Stop blaming Obama & DNC; Hillary lost fair & square, no matter how you count FL & MI. It's the Hillary campaign that wants to have a revolving door of metrics until they can find the exact one that gives her the nomination.
Dilloduck
Indifferent
no---voters were sanctioned for it. Nice of the DNC to allow MI and FL to allow millions of voters to have a say at the convention.
no---voters were sanctioned for it. Nice of the DNC to allow MI and FL to allow millions of voters to have a say at the convention.
The GOP had similar sanctions against states that moved their primaries up. It's not as if it's anything unusual; that's why they call them "rules."
If there was no way to enforce such rules, the primary system would be thrown into some real chaos next time around.
You're just dumb, and lazy, and want to try your best to find some sort of "hypocrisy" in this for partisan reasons.
I'm calling bull$hit on this.
Point to one post where anyone has called him a "genius" of any kind without being sarcastic.
Dilloduck
Indifferent
Any party that has rules that deny voters the opportunity to have their voice count is effectively disenfranchising them. Voters didn't break any rules.
Jimminnee Christmas almighty Onceler, WHO THE HECK SAID that all the delegates should go to Hillary?
What should have been done and was done untill the DNC decided that THEY WANTED TO PICK Michigan voter's choice for their nominee, was the certification of the voters vote, and the certified delegates distributed ACCORDING TO Michigan LAW...
THEY JUST IGNORED MICHIGAN LAW, and said that we will ignore the certified vote, and ignore the law that states uncommitted votes get uncommitted Unpledged delegates to go to the convention.
YOU CAN NOT EVER, MAKE UP WHAT YOU THINK a voter would have done behind the curtain of the voting booth....
NEVER IN OUR HISTORY have we changed the people that have actually taken the responsibility to get their voices heard by voting, and CHANGE THEIR VOTE, to what the polls and the DNC THINKS it was...for GOODNESS SAKE.....
you are just not understanding what has happened here, OBVIOUSLY...or just don't care... because the result of their ILLEGAL procedure benefitted your candidate, I suppose....?
care
No, Care - it is YOU that does not understand on this one. Because Obama was not on the ballot in MI. Oh, I know - it was a "political calculation" that he left his name off the ballot (which, of course, is something Hillary would never do). And isn't it curious how Edwards name was off the ballot, as well?
I was actually hoping they'd have a re-vote in MI, since I think he would have won there, or at least come very close. Here you are talking about 'counting every vote,' but you'd prefer that NO delegate from MI be assigned to Obama. That very large % of "uncommitted" votes was "uncommitted" because those people did not want to vote for Hillary, and there was no one else they could cast their vote for. And yet you'd like these to be free & unencumbered, so Hillary could take the fight to Denver & have a chance to persuade the actual "uncommitted" delegates over to her side, which somehow would then reflect the will of the voter.
Like I said, you're just sour grapes. They could do that, and she could persuade every one of 'em over to her, and she still wouldn't win. You're just pissed off, and want something & someone to blame, because it couldn't possibly be Hillary's fault that she lost this primary to a 3-year Senator....
I was actually hoping they'd have a re-vote in MI, since I think he would have won there, or at least come very close. Here you are talking about 'counting every vote,' but you'd prefer that NO delegate from MI be assigned to Obama. That very large % of "uncommitted" votes was "uncommitted" because those people did not want to vote for Hillary, and there was no one else they could cast their vote for. And yet you'd like these to be free & unencumbered, so Hillary could take the fight to Denver & have a chance to persuade the actual "uncommitted" delegates over to her side, which somehow would then reflect the will of the voter.
Like I said, you're just sour grapes. They could do that, and she could persuade every one of 'em over to her, and she still wouldn't win. You're just pissed off, and want something & someone to blame, because it couldn't possibly be Hillary's fault that she lost this primary to a 3-year Senator....
9/1/2007
Clinton Campaign Statement on the Four State Pledge
The following is a statement by Clinton Campaign Manager Patti Solis Doyle.
"We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process.
And we believe the DNC’s rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role.
Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar."
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=3134
Clinton Campaign Statement on the Four State Pledge
The following is a statement by Clinton Campaign Manager Patti Solis Doyle.
"We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process.
And we believe the DNC’s rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role.
Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar."
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=3134
Nothing has changed with me, nothing! I am as critical of Democrats as I was with Bush and Republicans....
If something is wrong, then something is wrong.
I can't change NOW, just because it is a Democrat doing something that breaks the rules.
I also believe that EVERY VOTE should count, as I DID IN 2000, and that the DNC has no authority to reduce OR STRIP each State's Certified Vote and Delegates.
But setting that aside onceler, even if the votes were to be reduced by half for a sanction, THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED IN MICHIGAN.
What happened in Michigan, is they took the votes that people had actually cast, and reallocated these votes to WHAT THEY WANTED THEM TO BE, they took certified votes and delegates and just MADE UP A NUMBER, and CHANGED the ACTUAL VOTE OF THE PEOPLE THAT VOTED.
that is not democracy, that does not respect the secret ballot, nor the certifications by law....nor the Rules and Regulations of the State of Michigan on how they conduct their Primary election.
WHY is what I am asking, are ALL OF YOU not as upset as me, with what they did...is beyond my comprehension, other than you and the others have been blinded by your affection for your candidate...
leave the candidates out of this...
this is about something the DNC did that goes against any kind of Democratic values....and was also against their own Rules...
you don't see this, because you don't WANT to see this onceler...and this is what is frightening....how much the tables have turned and how much you all are acting like the Bushite's did...especially the way they acted in the 2000 election....you all are even using their same lines that they used about rules and midstream changing and all that GARBAGE that they used in 2000 while we SUPPOSEDLY TOOK THE HIGHER GROUND of saying ALL THE CITIZEN'S VOTES SHOULD COUNT, not some, not who didn't vote....but those that did vote, and most importantly not count by half, BUT ALL...votes that were cast, that could be discerned, by all of the voters, should COUNT....
I just really am pretty dismayed at what is going on here...
Care
I am so pissed off that, because obama was not on the ballot, and they took the uncommitted votes and gave them to him, which most of them were for him, you dare to compare this to the election fraud which occurred before, during and after the 2000 election.
You are lying to yourself, to us, and making it so that election fraud is just a “difference of opinion” which is exactly what repukes have done, and what they still do.
This is beyond the pale, it’s disgusting. I can’t even read your posts anymore, I’ll need a break. I hope you get hold of yourself.
I am pissed off because what was done, was inherently wrong and NOT DEMOCRATIC....you do not take a person's private vote away from them and give it to someone they did not vote for....THIS IS WHAT THE DNC DID.
And yes, she probably would lose regardless, but FOLLOW THE LAW AND THE RULES DAMNIT...
and stop telling her to quit, before any WINNER has been declared or any WINNER has ACTUALLY WON....
it is uncalled for and disrespectful to ALL WOMEN....
=============
Another thing, as said, not only did Obama supporters not go to the polls, but HILLARY VOTERS did not go to the polls and Biden voters did not go to the polls and Edward's voters did not go to the polls and Dodd voters did not go to the polls and Gavel voters did not go to the polls and Kuscinich voters did not go to the polls and Richardson voters did not go to the polls........
What about this fact, should change the votes cast via their secret ballot?
Why steal them away from the cadidate that these voters voted for?
Voters in the latter states presidential primary after presidential primary NEVER GET A CHANCE to get all of their votes counted and MANY OF THESE VOTERS do not go to the polls and vote because of how late they are in the process...
should the DNC go in and CHANGE the votes of the people that did go out and do their civic duty and pull the lever for their candidate, to a POLL of what the voters in the state say they would have voted for as a candidate?
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING?
I really don't understand what your arguement is or what what legitimate grounds you have it Onceler?
I'm tellin' ya, there is definitely a derangement syndrome at work here. When an intelligent poster like Care can spew this kind of bullshit, you can only imagine what less intelligent Hillary supporters are are thinking & feeling.
Care - you do understand that MI broke the rules in moving their primary up, correct? And that any solution for seating their delegates would have to entail some kind of compromise, because the vote was taken at a time that was against the DNC rules?
And here you are talking about how they would have had to have a re-vote within a week or 2 of the time that was AGAINST the DNC rules, or it would be "unfair." It's gone beyond koolaid with you. You've really lost your mind on this one.
Care - you do understand that MI broke the rules in moving their primary up, correct? And that any solution for seating their delegates would have to entail some kind of compromise, because the vote was taken at a time that was against the DNC rules?
And here you are talking about how they would have had to have a re-vote within a week or 2 of the time that was AGAINST the DNC rules, or it would be "unfair." It's gone beyond koolaid with you. You've really lost your mind on this one.
She makes no sense. I'm sure you'd love to entertain her, so go ahead.
But I doubt there are enough like her to put McCain in the white house. I mean, this is a pretty serious condition. Thank God, my mother doesn't have it. A hillary supporter who knew it was over about a month ago, and who is voting for obama.
Darla Darling,
They took State certified votes and State Certified Delegates of the American citizen, and changed them to reflect WHAT THEY THOUGHT they should be....
I have NEVER in my lifetime been a witness to such, or even seen ANY AMERICAN OR PARTY in our history CHANGE the actual votes that were cast to reflect what a poll and the DNC thought they should be...
IF they can do this now, then what stops them form doing this in every state from here on out...they set precedence to take our individual private vote, away from us and make it in to a vote for someone else.
I have no doubt that if the candidates were allowed to campaign in the state, or that if Obama had not chosen to take his name off the ballot, that the results would have been more favorable than what they were to him.
All of this should NOT change the certified, legal vote, of the citizen's that cast them, nor should it change the Michigan Primary Rules, that states Uncommitted votes get Unpledged delegates appointed to go to the convention.
This is also an acceptable and in the RULES category of voter in the rules of the DNC, that State Certified uncommitted votes and their delegates go uncommitted and unpledged to the convention....
WHY DID THEY CHANGE THIS RULE IN THE 11TH HOUR?
To snuff Hillary's chances out sooner....
and they got away with it....changing the Michigan's citizen's vote and their delegates from that vote.
Be mad all ya want, it was worse than 2000, because 2000's SC's decision can not be repeated.
But what the DNC did, change the citizen's actual vote cast behind the curtain of the voting booth, and this can be done again and again and again, based off of what they did on Saturday....from now on, the DNC can just "make up votes out of thin air" and SAY they are legitimate, certified votes cast and that they should count.
Have you ever heard of accomodations made for all the registered voters that did not turn out to vote, where our gvt takes a poll and changes the actual vote in to the poll's account, instead of the actual votes cast?
I haven't and EVERYONE should be VERY, VERY upset with this...this change, after the fact, and outside of any rules and regs and outside of the fundamental principles of one man, one vote and the secret ballot.
care
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