Minimum Income

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DamnYankee said:
Yes.
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There's a big difference between private and personal property.

Private property is a term assigned to an object when it contains a social value, insofar as it allows for the creation of capital at the expense of others. It's attributed to the capitalists and the bourgeoisie, who own not just a factory (for instance), but it's ability to create capital through labor.

Personal property is a term assigned to an object that does not contain that value.

Your house would be private if you rented it out (or whatnot) to create capital, personal if you and your fellows simply lived in it. A similar thing could be said about your car.
 
Rose Captain said:
There's a big difference between private and personal property.

Private property is a term assigned to an object when it contains a social value, insofar as it allows for the creation of capital at the expense of others. It's attributed to the capitalists and the bourgeoisie, who own not just a factory (for instance), but it's ability to create capital through labor.

Personal property is a term assigned to an object that does not contain that value.

Your house would be private if you rented it out (or whatnot) to create capital, personal if you and your fellows simply lived in it. A similar thing could be said about your car.
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IC. So you hate people using their private property to make money.
 
DamnYankee said:
So you hate for people to have jobs.
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As I've pointed out, exploitation of labor is not a requisite to "jobs". Common ownership of private property is rather efficient, and mitigates many of the problems posed by it's current state.

To briefly mention another topic: The abolition of work (or the current state of a job) is also a worthwhile end. Granted, this involves the near complete elimination of labor and raw materials in production - which is something far from our reach.
 
I'm thinking DY has a definition of "exploitation" that none of the rest of us reading this thread has.

Before we discuss whether 99.999% of the workers are exploited or not, DY, please give us YOUR definition of the word "exploitation" so we know we are discussing the same thing.
 
tekkychick said:
I'm thinking DY has a definition of "exploitation" that none of the rest of us reading this thread has.

Before we discuss whether 99.999% of the workers are exploited or not, DY, please give us YOUR definition of the word "exploitation" so we know we are discussing the same thing.
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I'm thinking he has the same definition that I do, yet considers it an okay practice. It wouldn't be in any way out of line with the principals of neo-liberalism.
 
Just heard about a woman in our town who is opening a business; she's 90.

But she's the exception...I don't remember how old RoseCaptain is, but there does reach a point where most of us just don't feel like opening a new business.
 
Topspin said:
$12 hr min wage indexed to inflation.
The sky falling republicans always miss the depression prediction on min wage increase.
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Who can survive on that?
Employees get what they feel they deserve.
They should balls up and refuse to work for shit pay.
But human nature..........
Figure it out.
When applying for a job negotiate for better salaries.
Easy.
No need for government interference.
 
007 said:
Who can survive on that?
Employees get what they feel they deserve.
They should balls up and refuse to work for shit pay.
But human nature..........
Figure it out.
When applying for a job negotiate for better salaries.
Easy.
No need for government interference.
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And the southern slaves could have just refused to work.
They could have had the balls up to refuse to work for worse than shit pay.
EASY!
(sarcasm alert.)

The reason for minimum wages is to prevent (with or without collusion) employers from making workers into servants or wage slaves. Because the people with the money can always hold out longer than the people without the money. And you don't have to watch your children going hungry very long before you'll take any job for any wages.
 
Red Mule said:
And the southern slaves could have just refused to work.
They could have had the balls up to refuse to work for worse than shit pay.
EASY!
(sarcasm alert.)

The reason for minimum wages is to prevent (with or without collusion) employers from making workers into servants or wage slaves. Because the people with the money can always hold out longer than the people without the money. And you don't have to watch your children going hungry very long before you'll take any job for any wages.
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Unrealistic analogy.
There is no shortage of jobs.
Here in Boston, local 223 are screaming out for unskilled workers, paid in excess of $51. An hour real time.
It's hard work mind.
Not monging it behind a counter at MC Ds.
If people went for the tougher well paying jobs not the easy low paid jobs, the pay would increase.
 
007 said:
Unrealistic analogy.
There is no shortage of jobs.
Here in Boston, local 223 are screaming out for unskilled workers, paid in excess of $51. An hour real time.
It's hard work mind.
Not monging it behind a counter at MC Ds.
If people went for the tougher well paying jobs not the easy low paid jobs, the pay would increase.
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Yes, there are always exceptions and non-standard circumstances. I was referring to minimum wage jobs and a legally mandated minimum wage. NOT skilled jobs that already make far more than the average.

In some job categories we DO have a labor shortage of QUALIFIED applicants. Often we approve foreign nationals a visa expressly for the purpose of filling these jobs. It's a sad fact that there is a disconnect between needed job skills and education and the jobs we urgently need to fill. And this needs to be fixed. But, that also is not what the minimum wage addresses.

The minimum wage is simply a way to assure those at the bottom tier of our employment ladder make sufficient wages to be able to have a minimum acceptable standard of living. THESE people do not have the power or money to individually negotiate for better wages. Especially in today's anti-union environment.
 
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