My paper on ethics

:lolup:

As I indicated just two posts ago, stupid fuck, the premise is about human ethics, philosophies and beliefs, not whether gravity exists. Or even whether you’re a fucking moron, which is also indisputable.

Idiot. :rofl2:

who gives a fuck how you now want to move the goalposts........you were a fucking idiot on page one and you're a fucking idiot now........
 
Frank, he’s referring to human beliefs and philosophies, not whether you fall when you step off a tall building.

I’d invite you to offer an absolute truth, as well. Our new guest is obviously unable to do so. I’ll gladly admit you are correct if you can offer one, but I doubt you can.

I was not dealing with his original thought, Domer, merely with the thought he mentioned in his #72...of you supposedly suggesting "there is no absolute truth."

Of course "absolute truth" exists...as in 2+2=4 in base ten...or a circle has no angles.

But like you, I doubt there are absolute truths when it comes to "ethics"...other than "Morals are the result of subjectivity."

I, too, would gladly acknowledge being wrong if an example could be furnished...but, also like you, I doubt one can. In the area of "moral principles"...it is my opinion that ALL are the result of subjective sensibilities. The notion that ANY "moral principles" are the result of "absolute truths" is a religious concept...not a philosophical one.
 
Frank Apisa,

I am not sure how it is possible for ethics to be purely subjective.

Here are the possible options:

1. Value exists objectively.

If this is the case, and if it is also the case that people may possibly have an impact on value, then it is important that we understand it correctly. The vehicle to discover objective truths is reason. .: The capacity to reason and the beings with the capacity to reason would themselves be valuable.

2. Value does not exist. People looking at the world through the lens of themselves impose their own feelings and opinions of importance on the people and events around them, but those opinions go no farther than that lens. They are mistaken, even delusional to believe that it does. (This sounds like what is meant by "subjective morality.")

If this is the case, it goes back to my argument against nihilism. - "Perhaps the nihilist will object, if they care to do so, and suggest that we cannot know if there is meaning in ourselves, in others, or in anything at all. Granting this for the sake of argument, we are left with two options: there is no meaning in life, or there is meaning. If there is no meaning, then we lose nothing to assume that there is. But if there is meaning, then we may do wrong if we assume that there isn't. Therefore, without clear evidence to the contrary, it is ethically necessary to act under the assumption that there is meaning to life and there are such things as ethics."

3. Value something that is brought into existence by people.

If this is the case, an effect cannot be greater than its cause. The person who can create value must himself have value, which necessarily precedes his subjective creation of it, thus making it objective.

The most reasonable conclusion is that consciousness, will, the capacity to reason, the capacity to create, and the being that possesses these is objectively valuable.
 
I am not sure how it is possible for ethics to be purely subjective.

Okay…so just don’t be sure about that, Kess. But you are going a step further and saying “They CANNOT be subjective...and must be objective.”

Best way to start "not going that further step" might be to stop using the term “ethics” in your premature arguments. It would be better if you used “moral principles.”

Essentially you are saying that “moral principles” are not subjective…or as you put it, “not opinions, not subjective feelings, and do not change from person to person, or from legal structure to legal structure.”

I consider that to be dead wrong. Of course moral principles DO change from person to person and from legal structure to legal structure…BECAUSE they are opinion…because they are subjective. They change even within individuals during a lifetime…and within individuals depending upon environment.

An individual's moral principles are predicated on influences of upbringing...and peer/social pressures...plus circumstance.

Once again, though, you have not clearly identified the intent of this cumbersome essay...so I am not sure of where you are headed with it...or why you are heading there.

I'll not comment on the rest of your present reply for now...and listen to what you have to say about what I've said here.

And I live in hope that you will offer a short paragraph of what you are aiming for and why...so that we can read your essay with a more informed perspective.
 
I consider that to be dead wrong. Of course moral principles DO change from person to person and from legal structure to legal structure…BECAUSE they are opinion…because they are subjective. They change even within individuals during a lifetime…and within individuals depending upon environment.

An individual's moral principles are predicated on influences of upbringing...and peer/social pressures...plus circumstance.

Frank Apisa,

My assertion is that ethics is objective. I provided an argument to support that claim in my previous post.

Your claim is that ethics is subjective.

Your support appears to be that ethical beliefs differ from person to person, or within individuals, and that there are nature and nurture causes for those beliefs.

First, it does not follow that just because people disagree about a thing that it is subjective.
It is possible for people to have different beliefs about objective truths.
As a counter example, consider astronomy. There are objective realities about planets and stars and their relative motion. However throughout history people have strongly disagreed about what they are. Individuals may change their beliefs about this during their lifetime. This does in no way mean that claims about astronomy are subjective claims.

Secondly, it does not follow that because some or even all people derive their beliefs based on weak evidence or personal reasons that the claims of their beliefs are subjective.
It is possible to make arguments for a true objective conclusion based on false premises or an invalid argument. This does not mean that the conclusion is false, or subjective. It merely means that the conclusion cannot be rationally proven by those arguments.
For a counter example, let us say a woman has a child accused of a crime he did not commit. The objective truth is he is innocent. Perhaps she has subjective reasons to support the claim of his innocence that do not logically prove it. But the presence of a poor argument does not mean there cannot be a good argument. And the presence of personal, subjective reasons to believe an objective claim does not mean the claim is itself subjective, or that there could not be other objective arguments for it.

I do not believe these are sufficient reasons to support your belief that ethics is subjective.
 
Frank Apisa,

My assertion is that ethics is objective. I provided an argument to support that claim in my previous post.

Your claim is that ethics is subjective.

Your support appears to be that ethical beliefs differ from person to person, or within individuals, and that there are nature and nurture causes for those beliefs.

First, it does not follow that just because people disagree about a thing that it is subjective.
It is possible for people to have different beliefs about objective truths.
As a counter example, consider astronomy. There are objective realities about planets and stars and their relative motion. However throughout history people have strongly disagreed about what they are. Individuals may change their beliefs about this during their lifetime. This does in no way mean that claims about astronomy are subjective claims.

Secondly, it does not follow that because some or even all people derive their beliefs based on weak evidence or personal reasons that the claims of their beliefs are subjective.
It is possible to make arguments for a true objective conclusion based on false premises or an invalid argument. This does not mean that the conclusion is false, or subjective. It merely means that the conclusion cannot be rationally proven by those arguments.
For a counter example, let us say a woman has a child accused of a crime he did not commit. The objective truth is he is innocent. Perhaps she has subjective reasons to support the claim of his innocence that do not logically prove it. But the presence of a poor argument does not mean there cannot be a good argument. And the presence of personal, subjective reasons to believe an objective claim does not mean the claim is itself subjective, or that there could not be other objective arguments for it.

I do not believe these are sufficient reasons to support your belief that ethics is subjective.

Allow me to take that last part first.

I do not believe these are sufficient reasons to support your belief that ethics is subjective.

I do not do "believing" at all and I object to the word being used as applied to me...so I do not have a "belief" that ethics is subjective.

What I think/suppose ethics is...is a branch of philosophy that deals with "moral principles."

It is my opinion...my very strong opinion...that "moral principles" ARE 100% SUBJECTIVE.

My assertion is that ethics is objective. I provided an argument to support that claim in my previous post.

Your claim is that ethics is subjective.

Your support appears to be that ethical beliefs differ from person to person, or within individuals, and that there are nature and nurture causes for those beliefs.

You have not provided an argument to support that claim...because the claim makes no sense as worded...and there is no way you could provide arguments to support the correctly worded claim "moral principles are objective" because it simply is not true.

The challenge that has been offered to you to present even one example of a moral principle that is OBJECTIVE rather than SUBJECTIVE has not been met because there are no examples to be offered.

Try to do it...and we can continue the discussion.

The rest of your post pretty much says what I said earlier...THERE ARE OBJECTIVE TRUTHS.

You could list the ones you did (from astronomy) or others from physics or chemistry or math or spacial relations...and it would not change a thing about whether or not moral principles are objective or subjective.

In any case, so that we can understand your insistence that moral principles are objective...

...please offer one or two moral principles that ARE objective...so that we can discuss the particulars of the examples.

You may surprise us to the point where we might say that SOME moral principles are indeed objective...

...although that would surprise me considerable.
 
Posted below is Ethics Part 2. It contains an argument for some objective ethics, which is where Frank Apisa was going with our earlier conversation.

Below I have written four arguments that supports that claim more explicitly.

In order to succeed in this challenge I will need to establish that there is something that ought to be, as an objective statement, with a level of evidence that supports my claim more strongly than its denial.


My claim: People own themselves.

Definitions:
To own: to acknowledge as one's own; recognize as having full claim, authority, power, dominion. To have the right to make decisions as to how the thing will be used.

This is by nature an objective claim, as the right to use oneself precludes using oneself to make subjective opinions.


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Argument 1
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1. One should assume that ethics exist:

"...we are left with two options: there is no meaning in life, or there is meaning.
If there is no meaning, then we lose nothing to assume that there is.
But if there is meaning, then we may do wrong if we assume that there isn't.
Therefore, without clear evidence to the contrary, it is ethically necessary to act under the assumption that there is meaning to life and there are such things as ethics."

2. One should assume that ethics are knowable:

Either ethics are knowable or they aren't
If they are not knowable, whether we believe they are knowable or not has no effect on whether we know them. It does not matter either way.
If they are knowable, and we believe they are not, we will not know and follow them, and may do wrong.
If they are knowable, and we believe that they are, we may discover and follow them, and may do right.
Therefore we should assume ethics are knowable.

3. If ethics are knowable, the means to know the truth value of ethical statements is through reason.

Ethical statements entail comprehension of possible future actions, as well as the means to compare them.

4. Human beings capable of reason are morally obligated to use their reason to discover ethical values.

5. Ethical reasoning cannot be delegated only to some people.

It is possible that one person's ethical instructions to another may be in error.
The person receiving ethical instruction must filter the instruction through their capacity to reason to distinguish between truth and error, in the same way they must filter all other sources.

6. To discover ethical truths and to act ethically requires self-ownership.

In order to use one's faculty of reason, one must use oneself. If one ought to reason, then one ought to use oneself. Therefore each person has a right to themselves.
In order to perform the discovered ethical acts, one must use oneself. If one ought to act ethically, then one ought to use oneself. Therefore each person has a right to themselves.

7. Therefore, each person has a right to themselves


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Argument 2
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1. Each person is inhabiting, and therefore using their body for the duration of their lives.

2. Each person is not inhabiting, and therefore not using the body of another person to the same extent.

3. Therefore, the person with the greatest claim to themselves is themselves.


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Argument 3
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1. The person who will experience the consequences of the use of their body and person is themselves.

2. Other people will not experience the consequences of the use of their body or person to the same extent.

3. Therefore, each person has a greater interest in owning themselves, and has a greater right.


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Argument 4
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1. Each person either wholly owns himself or he does not.

2. If he does not, either one group partially or wholly owns another group, or everyone partially or wholly owns each other.

3. If one group owns another, this violates the universal ethic.

There must be some differentiating factor that creates a greater claim of some people over others.
In the absence of that evidence, each person must be considered equally as a moral agent.

4. If everyone owns everyone else, it would not be functionally possible for everyone to surveille each other and depend on consensus to know what to do and could not survive.

If everyone dies, no one will be able to act ethically.
Everyone dying is not an ethically preferable outcome.

5. A person being owned by others is either morally unsubstantiated or functionally impossible.

6. Therefore each person wholly owns himself.







=======================================


-Part Two - Rights-

With this proper understanding of our fellow man, certain rights necessarily follow. A right is a domain of authority. Ownership means the right to decide how a thing is used.

Life

The person who has the greatest and most natural claim to you is you. You are, after all, in possession of yourself. Those things without which you would no longer be you are your essential features. They include the body's vital functions, sentience, and will. If you do not have yourself, you have nothing at all.

Either each person wholly owns himself or he does not. If he does not, either one group partially or wholly owns another group, or everyone partially or wholly owns each other. If one group owns another, this would violate the universal ethic, as it does not apply equally to all people. If everyone owns everyone else, it would not be functionally possible for everyone to surveille each other and depend on consensus to know what to do and could not survive. Therefore the most natural and only possible moral option is that each person owns themselves.

Property

Authority is through authorship. Property is an extension of self through time, your ingenuity and energy poured into matter. The three ways a person can come to have a greater claim than anyone else over a piece of property is to 1) be the first one to claim it and mix it with your labor, 2) agree with the previous owner that you may own it, and 3) claim and use property that has been abandoned. Theft deprives you of a part of your past, present, and future. It takes your past the time and heart poured into your creations, your present ability to enjoy your property, and the future that you have sacrificed your past to procure.

When property is used in such a way that goes against the will of the rightful owner, this is called murder, rape, assault, theft, fraud, etc. In the same way that a person has the right to "use force" to control those things within their domain--their life and property, there is also the right to use force to "return" property unjustly used by someone who is not its owner. To set things right again, the person who did the harm must make their victim whole as much as humanly possible, by paying restitution or some other means. This process is protected from abuse by being encased in a system of "due process", or proving the who is the victim and victimizer, and what is the remedy. This is where just law comes from.

"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10)
 
it is sad that you still don't know what "ethics" means.......what grade did you get on your first paper?......if you aren't studying morality you have no "ethics"........
 
question #1........how can you even begin to discuss a universal moral standard ("universal ethic" in your vernacular) if as you say each person belongs to himself.......obviously morality is individualized, not universal........you contradict yourself......
 
question #1........how can you even begin to discuss a universal moral standard ("universal ethic" in your vernacular) if as you say each person belongs to himself.......obviously morality is individualized, not universal........you contradict yourself......

Each person has the right to do with himself as he (or she) chooses.

Each person does not necessarily possess concepts like 1+1=2 to change as they wish. The nature of objective is "mind-independent," meaning it can be true regardless of a peron's beliefs or knowledge. I am arguing that ethics falls under this category.
 
Each person has the right to do with himself as he (or she) chooses.

of course.....that's why there is no such thing as a "universal ethic" or universal moral code........

Each person does not necessarily possess concepts like 1+1=2 to change as they wish.

ethics does not work like mathematics.......each person creates his own standards of conduct.......we do not create our own rules of math.......
 
My ethics on paper

kisspng-t-shirt-toilet-paper-feces-cartoon-toilet-stool-5a6870e1dcef21.042735291516794081905.jpg
 
of course.....that's why there is no such thing as a "universal ethic" or universal moral code........



ethics does not work like mathematics.......each person creates his own standards of conduct.......we do not create our own rules of math.......

PostmodernProphet, your refutation is a restatement of your position and not an argument for it. How do you know that there is no objective morality?

I have provided four arguments in favor of my position. It is a claim to objective ethics. For example, if the claim " people own themselves " is true, then someone who's standard of conduct is " group A owns group B" would be objectively wrong and unethical. If you could show me any weaknesses in my arguments I would appreciate it.
 
How do you know that there is no objective morality? .

identify the objective morality.......is it right or wrong to kill unborn children?.......is it right or wrong to have a death penalty........is it right or wrong to partake of marijuana in states which have not approved it's use.........is it right or wrong to shoplift in Boston......is it right or wrong to download movie torrents........is it right or wrong to avoid paying federal income taxes by using regulations issued by the IRS.......

as for "owning themselves"....if you are referring to slavery, are there places in this world where slavery is not considered immoral?........how far are sweat shops removed from slavery........what does your "universal" morality tell you?.......

the fact that you and a whole bunch of people agree on one issue doesn't make it "universal"......
 
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