Obama is wrong on Afghanistan

blackascoal

The Force is With Me
Obama is wrong on Afghanistan
By Patrick Seale, Special to Gulf News
July 24, 2008

On his foreign travels this week, Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential candidate, pledged to switch the focus of America's military effort from Iraq to Afghanistan - the 'central front' - in his estimation of the war on terror. US combat troops would be withdrawn from Iraq within 16 months of his taking office, but thousands more, he promised, would be sent to fight in Afghanistan, and be ready to cross the border into Pakistan's tribal areas to root out jihadist sanctuaries there.

This commitment - and the explicit threat to expand the war - is almost certainly a grave mistake. Costly in men and treasure, it is unlikely to be successful and threatens to be hugely damaging not only to American interests in the Muslim world and Central Asia, but also to Afghanistan itself, to Pakistan and to Indo-Pakistan relations.

No doubt, Obama senses that the American public yearns for some sort of victory against Al Qaida, the elusive terrorist group that dared strike at America's heartland on 9/11. "Losing is not an option when it comes to Al Qaida..." he told CBS. He wants to look tough on security issues, where his rival John McCain seems to have an edge.

But this is to be a slave to old thinking, and in particular to a view of doubtful validity - but accepted as gospel by many Western politicians - that Western security depends on locating the ageing Osama Bin Laden in some remote mountain fastness, and destroying him.

This is to mistake the nature of the threat to Western societies. Far more dangerous than Al Qaida is the mass of angry tribesmen and city-dwellers in the Afghan provinces of Helmand and Kandahar, in Pakistan's Balochistan, in the tribal agencies of North and South Waziristan, in and around the teeming city of Peshawar, and even further afield in neighbouring Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

These men, and many of their co-religionaries in the wider Muslim world, are angry because of America's "war on terror". For many of them, it has meant the presence of an "infidel" army in Muslim lands, the vast disruption of their traditional way of life, the killing of their wives and children by US air strikes, the flourishing of cruel and greedy warlords in outlying Afghan areas, and the rule in Kabul of President Hamid Karzai, seen as a Western puppet presiding over a corrupt and ineffective regime.

Military means

To pursue the battle against Al Qaida by military means is to awaken these powerful tribal and Muslim resentments - as well as to threaten the already precarious stability of Pakistan, a Muslim nuclear power of 165 million people locked in a dangerous confrontation with India in both Kashmir and Afghanistan.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, the former US national security adviser, is a rare American voice to say (in an interview with the Financial Times last Monday) that "putting more troops into Afghanistan is not the entire solution... we run the risk that our military presence will gradually turn the Afghan population entirely against us".

Gérard Chaliand, a French counter-terrorist expert, goes further still. "Victory is impossible in Afghanistan," he declared (in an interview with Le Monde, last Tuesday). "Today, one must attempt to negotiate. There is no other way... The insurgency is not led by Al Qaida on by foreign fighters. It is a Pashtun matter [the majority tribe in Afghanistan, with another 15 million members in Pakistan]. The Pashtuns are fighting first of all for themselves."

Marc Sagemen, a leading American expert on Muslim extremism, argues in his book, Leaderless Jihad, that free-lance radicals are more of a threat to Western interests than Al Qaida itself which, he claims, has already been "neutralised operationally".

Another important book which denounces America's obsession with destroying Al Qaida is Ahmad Rashid's Descent into Chaos: How the War Against Islamic Extremism is Being Lost in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia. He argues that the neo-con obsession with Al Qaida has blinded the US to the impact of the war on Afghanistan, Pakistan and Kashmir, leading in turn to the powerful resurgence of the Taliban on both sides of the Afghan-Pakistan border.

It is surely the greatest folly for Nato to declare - and seemingly to believe - that its survival as an alliance, and indeed its very raison d'être, depends on victory in the Afghan theatre, a war that is virtually unwinnable.

Not the least of the problems is the underlying tension in Afghanistan between India and Pakistan, greatly exacerbated by this month's suicide car bomb outside the Indian embassy in Kabul which killed 58 people. India blamed the atrocity on Pakistan's Inter-Service Intelligence directorate (ISI), a charge that Pakistan vigorously denies.

It needs to be said, however, that Pakistan's military establishment views Afghanistan as its "strategic depth" in any conflict with India. It is ready to employ strong-arm tactics to ensure that the Kabul government tilts its way rather than India's.

Anti-American sentiment

With anti-American sentiment running high in Pakistan, the coalition government of Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani has no wish to get sucked into America's "war on terror". It is seeking to negotiate with militant leaders in the tribal agencies, not make war on them, as America is urging. Obama's pledge to order military strikes against terrorist sanctuaries in Pakistan is viewed in Islamabad as highly irresponsible.

As is now widely recognised, Muslim radicals throughout the world have been inflamed by the wanton destruction of Iraq, by the war in Afghanistan, by Israel's cruel oppression of the Palestinians, and by the whole notion of the "war on terror", seen as a war on Islam itself. The way to defuse the threat the radicals pose is to change the policies. To seek to destroy them by military force is to radicalise them further.

Yet, in spite of the mass of evidence that force is not the way to tame the swelling army of militants, both US presidential contenders, Barack Obama and John McCain, speak of "turning around Afghanistan" by pouring in more troops. The sobering fact - confirmed by the US military - is that attacks by militants against the US-led coalition in Afghanistan have risen by 40 per cent this year, compared with 2007.

If not force, then what? Oxfam, the British humanitarian organisation, is not alone among NGOs in pleading for a change of focus. "Unless the next American president... builds on the existing commitments to help lift the Afghan people out of extreme poverty and protect civilians, it will be impossible for the country to achieve lasting peace," Oxfam said in a recent statement.

Afghanistan urgently needs an internationally-negotiated ceasefire followed by the formation of a new government, including the Taliban. It also needs a massive injection of development funds, distributed under neutral UN auspices. And, just as a resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict is essential to end the violence in the Middle East, so a resolution of the Indo-Pakistan quarrel over Kashmir is vital to the health of the subcontinent.

These should be the priorities of the international community, rather than sending more young men to a useless death in the mountains and deserts of Afghanistan.

http://www.gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/world/10231652.html
 
Who are we trying to defeat in Afghanistan .. terrorism?

Just more military misadventures without the slightest consideration for the blowback that comes when things go wrong.

This can end up with wider escalation and consequences than Iraq.

Where the fuck is the change?
 
Who are we trying to defeat in Afghanistan .. terrorism?

Just more military misadventures without the slightest consideration for the blowback that comes when things go wrong.

This can end up with wider escalation and consequences than Iraq.

Where the fuck is the change?
I think the USSR fought "terrorism" in Afghanistan for quite some time.
 
Who are we trying to defeat in Afghanistan .. terrorism?

Just more military misadventures without the slightest consideration for the blowback that comes when things go wrong.

This can end up with wider escalation and consequences than Iraq.

Where the fuck is the change?


BAC - I appreciate your enthusiasm but the question at this point isn't whether to go into Afghanistan. The question at this point is what we do in Afghanistan now that we are there and the Taliban is resurgent and Al Qaeda is hanging out in the tribal areas in the border lands.

And please, all you folks chanting "sell out" show me where Obama vowed to get out of Afghanistan or not to put more troops in Afghanistan. I'd really like to see it.
 
BAC - I appreciate your enthusiasm but the question at this point isn't whether to go into Afghanistan. The question at this point is what we do in Afghanistan now that we are there and the Taliban is resurgent and Al Qaeda is hanging out in the tribal areas in the border lands.

And please, all you folks chanting "sell out" show me where Obama vowed to get out of Afghanistan or not to put more troops in Afghanistan. I'd really like to see it.

"Enthusiasm" ???

That's interesting.

What I appreciate is that you seem to be one of the few Obama supporters who will even address Afghanistan .. but even you fail to see the Iraq parallels that surround it.

"The question at this point is what we do in Afghanistan now that we are there .."

I've heard the right say the exact same thing about Iraq .. and so have you. When more US dead bodies come home from Afghanistan and they pile up higher than the dead bodies in Iraq .. how are you any different than Bush supporters who followed him into Iraq?

I'm betting that Obama maintains the Bush policy of not allowing the coffins to be filmed.

The real question is why are we murdering people in Afghanistan who had nothing to do with 9/11?

Answer that question for me sir.
 
It appears that Obama supporters don't want to deal with issues .. parades. crowds, and applause seems more to their liking.

Brzezinski: Surge In Afghanistan Risky, Some McCain Backers Want World War IV

"I think we're literally running the risk of unintentionally doing what the Russians did. And that, if it happens, would be a tragedy," Brzezinski told the Huffington Post on Friday. "When we first went into Afghanistan to overthrow the Taliban, we were actually welcomed by an overwhelming majority of Afghans. They did not see us as invaders, as they saw the Soviets."

However, Brzezinski noted that just as the Soviets were able to delude themselves that they had a loyal army of communist-sympathizers who would transform the country, the U.S.-led forces may now be making similar mistakes. He said that the conduct of military operations "with little regard for civilian casualties" may accelerate the negative trend in local public opinion regarding the West's role. "It's just beginning, but it's significant," Brzezinski said."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/25/brzezinski-warns-against_n_114999.html
 
Obama sold out the anti war backers.
He said "take troups out of Iraq and send them to Afghanistan".
The should Get the fuck out of both countries. How many millions of Afghanies to we need to kill for the 18 Saudis that attack on 911?
 
Obama sold out the anti war backers.
He said "take troups out of Iraq and send them to Afghanistan".
The should Get the fuck out of both countries. How many millions of Afghanies to we need to kill for the 18 Saudis that attack on 911?

Top, your one redeeming value.

I wish I knew the answer. But it is as Scott Ritter said - Americans are not anti-war, Americans are anti-losing a war. That is why they turned against Iraq. The cold nasty truth is that they, by and large, don't give a rat's ass how many people we kill. They don't really consider them people at all.

They will deny this. Talk about "security" and national interests.

Nevertheless, it is the truth.
 
Top, your one redeeming value.

I wish I knew the answer. But it is as Scott Ritter said - Americans are not anti-war, Americans are anti-losing a war. That is why they turned against Iraq. The cold nasty truth is that they, by and large, don't give a rat's ass how many people we kill. They don't really consider them people at all.

They will deny this. Talk about "security" and national interests.

Nevertheless, it is the truth.

But the question revealed is how is the left any more intelligent, conscious, honest, or humane than the right if we capitualte to evil simply because it's "our guy" that's doing it?

How do the anti-war, anti-Bush Americans look themselves in the mirror if they have nothing to say about Obama leading this nation further into the abyss of war?

You're right, most Americans don't give a rat's ass about other people and cultures.

We are an invented people.
 
We should just pile all our weapons up and melt them down. The left doesn't want the US to fight ANY wars. Just stay home and do nothing. Afghanistan really was the country were Al Qaeda was getting aid and comfort, well that and Pakistan. The Taliban really is an orginizations that believes in the use of terrorism to defeat the enemies of Islam. You would also think that the treatment of women by the Taliban would at least get the backing of lefty women. But no, we should all sing Blowing in the Wind and hope everything works itself out.
 
Who are we trying to defeat in Afghanistan .. terrorism?

Just more military misadventures without the slightest consideration for the blowback that comes when things go wrong.

This can end up with wider escalation and consequences than Iraq.

Where the fuck is the change?

The change is in healthcare. The change is striving to make sure there is a job for every american. The change is in having a leader that can complete a proper sentence and is a role model.

The change is showing the world that there is some good in america and that we can be a respected nation again, after so much arrogance, stupidity and belligerence we have shown the world in the past 8 years.

It's very hard to have the perfect candidate. We can't always agree with everything, but lets not lose track of what electing Obama really means, it most certainly is a new direction. Yes he has his flaws, he's human like everyone, but we need to get out country back on the right track and that STARTS (not finishes) with Obama.
 
We should just pile all our weapons up and melt them down. The left doesn't want the US to fight ANY wars. Just stay home and do nothing. Afghanistan really was the country were Al Qaeda was getting aid and comfort, well that and Pakistan. The Taliban really is an orginizations that believes in the use of terrorism to defeat the enemies of Islam. You would also think that the treatment of women by the Taliban would at least get the backing of lefty women. But no, we should all sing Blowing in the Wind and hope everything works itself out.

Fuck that, not with my tax dollars on your optional war.
Saudi Arabians had 1,000 time more to do with 911 than Afghanies. Plus we fucked them up royally for years. HOW MUCH AS KICKING IS ENOUGH????
 
Fuck that, not with my tax dollars on your optional war.
Saudi Arabians had 1,000 time more to do with 911 than Afghanies. Plus we fucked them up royally for years. HOW MUCH AS KICKING IS ENOUGH????
The Taliban is taking control again because Bush has basically ignored the situtation in Afghanistan this whole time with his stupid war in Iraq. The Saudi government did not provide aid and comfort for Al Qaeda, though many Saudi's have supplied money. Afghanistan was and could become againt the heart of the beast. We should have been there the whole time, but it is a hard place to fight and the Administration didn't want to fight the hard fight. They wanted the "easy" fight.
 
we need to get the fuck out of the middle east, we are breeding more terrorist by killing thousands more than needed.
 
The change is in healthcare. The change is striving to make sure there is a job for every american. The change is in having a leader that can complete a proper sentence and is a role model.

The change is showing the world that there is some good in america and that we can be a respected nation again, after so much arrogance, stupidity and belligerence we have shown the world in the past 8 years.

It's very hard to have the perfect candidate. We can't always agree with everything, but lets not lose track of what electing Obama really means, it most certainly is a new direction. Yes he has his flaws, he's human like everyone, but we need to get out country back on the right track and that STARTS (not finishes) with Obama.

The change is that Obama can change his mind anytime the wind blows in a different direction .. so you don't know if you're getting any of the things you stated other than a president who can complete sentences.

It is with arrogance, stupidity, and belligerence that Obama takes this nation down the path of further needless war.

I'm not looking foir the "perfect candidate" .. I'm looking for the honest one.
 
We should just pile all our weapons up and melt them down. The left doesn't want the US to fight ANY wars. Just stay home and do nothing. Afghanistan really was the country were Al Qaeda was getting aid and comfort, well that and Pakistan. The Taliban really is an orginizations that believes in the use of terrorism to defeat the enemies of Islam. You would also think that the treatment of women by the Taliban would at least get the backing of lefty women. But no, we should all sing Blowing in the Wind and hope everything works itself out.

And you on the center or right or wherever you are seem to believe that war and more war is the answer.

The left was absolutley fucking correct about the uselessness of Vietnam and Iraq while you dummies on the center/right followed the bouncing ball of ignorant arrogance. Are you suggesting that Vietnam and Iraq were necessary for the security of America?

You correctly mentioned Pakistan .. so are you suggesting that we take your war into Pakistan? .. No hell no you aren't because you couldn't possibly be that stupid. Pakistan has nukes.

So what you're suggesting is that we should go kill more people in Afghanistan because they're easier to kill. Your argument for war completely fall on its face when you only want to pick on the weak. Surely you must have supported Bush and the war in Iraq since you appear to love war.

Question: What is the mission in Afgahanistan?
 
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The Taliban is taking control again because Bush has basically ignored the situtation in Afghanistan this whole time with his stupid war in Iraq. The Saudi government did not provide aid and comfort for Al Qaeda, though many Saudi's have supplied money. Afghanistan was and could become againt the heart of the beast. We should have been there the whole time, but it is a hard place to fight and the Administration didn't want to fight the hard fight. They wanted the "easy" fight.

So why aren't you suggesting that we take your war into Pakistan?

Could it be because it won't be the "easy fight?"

Have you any sense of the history of Afghanistan and how the Soviets failed there?

How many dead bodies of US soldiers do you care to lose?

Do you have any intentions of joining up to fight a war you think is worth more Americans dying for? .. My guess is that you have no intentions of doing so.

Much "easier" to whine about the left being antiwar than to go share in the dying yourself.
 
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