Obama is wrong on Afghanistan

Yes it is Bac.

If the American public had been told the truth about these facts they would have never gotten away with it repetedly.

I was called a nutbag by even the democrats here who were highly informed on most other subjects.
 
blackascoal said:
You've given a great excuse for why America elects clowns and actors .. but you haven't said a word about the innocent people we're about to sacrifice on the alter of "that's just how it is."

As always I respect your thoughts, but I don't accept that kind of excuse for why we must kill people so we can feel better about ourselves.

At what point do we elect LEADERS who will not accept the stupid and barbaric .. and who will address the mindset that led us into Iraq?

Obama had the stage and the leverage to do exactly that .. as he promised .. but he has chosen the barbaric and insane course of more war .. on top of the ever-growing list of flip-flops that he's becoming known for.

My conviction of antiwar doesn't change because a democrat is proposing it .. nor should yours my sister.
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If we left Afganistan NOW innocent people would die.

I dont want any innocents or even not so innocents to die Bac but no matter what we do some will die. All we can do is try to make the best choice possible for our country and the other countries effected by our choices.


When you go on like this about such subjects I just have to wonder who you are trying to make gains for.
 
Desh said:
Im affraid if we left or didnt leave innocent people will die Bac.

With proper levels of troops fewer people will die while we are there.

Russia and China will not involve themselves in Aganistan, there is nothing there that they want.

Obama is not running for saint he is running for president of the US.

He has to get elected and the American people agreed on the Afgan war for the most part. To go into this country with proper troop levels and stablize it while warning the Pakistan that they better cooperate and police their country or we will is very much in line with the American publics sentiments.
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Since we're friends I can tell you that's a naive view of the situation.

First, we invaded Afghanistan because we wanted to build a pipeline through it. You can hold onto "terrorism" as the rationale if you choose, but the reality is that US troops are there protecting that pipeline .. for CORPORATIONS, not the American people.

The Afghan Pipeline You Don't Kno About
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/335023/the_afghan_pipeline_you_don_t_know_about
 
Desh said:
...

When you go on like this about such subjects I just have to wonder who you are trying to make gains for.
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I think it makes BAC look consistent. On the other hand Desh, no offense meant, what's the difference between what you are saying regarding Afghanistan and what many of us have said about Iraq? The ONLY thing I can come up with is which war your candidate if FOR.
 
Obama is a special interest sellout. And Harry Reid has bred a bunch of spineless whiners like BAC and Desh. All you need is a mirror to see why dems have clusterfucked the whole thing BAC.
 
The whole thing was a calculated move to convience the American people that we needed to invade the middle east so they could get control of the oil.

I know this Bac. I also truely fear that this current government at least allowed the trade towers to be attacked.

The current facts are that we are in Afganistan and Iraq. Leaving Iraq using Afganistan as a kind of staging ground is the smart thing to do. Afganistan can be stablized before we go and they and us will be better off for the efforts.

To pretend you can just ignore the true current mess simply because it was created by a pack of sociopaths is foolish.

You and Obama dont have to agree on every policy issue. His job is NOT to just be YOUR president.
 
Kathianne said:
I think it makes BAC look consistent. On the other hand Desh, no offense meant, what's the difference between what you are saying regarding Afghanistan and what many of us have said about Iraq? The ONLY thing I can come up with is which war your candidate if FOR.
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I have said from the begining that I did not object to us going into Afganistan.

I objected to Iraq from the day I heard the plan.

One of my objections was the abandoning of the efforts in Afganistan.

How ,pray tell, is it inconsistant of me to say the same now?
 
Desh said:
If we left Afganistan NOW innocent people would die.

I dont want any innocents or even not so innocents to die Bac but no matter what we do some will die. All we can do is try to make the best choice possible for our country and the other countries effected by our choices.


When you go on like this about such subjects I just have to wonder who you are trying to make gains for.
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You're making the Iraq argument .. "if we leave now people will die" .. and it's just as failed an argument now as it was then.

Afghanistan is not the best choice for our country, it is, as you have said, a placebo, a charade, and a dance to make some Americans feel safe.

Do you know what the Shanghai Cooperation Organization is? It's China, Russia, and the former Soviet Central Asian republics of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan .. with Iran and Venezuela as cooperating partners. They want all US bases removed from central Asia, thus they have a vested interest in the US losing in Afghanistan an the Russians are anxious to pay the US back for our intervention when they were trying to tame Afghanistan.

If you wonder why I make these arguments it is because I am anti needless mass-murder in the name of useless war .. and I don't give a damn what party, race, faith, or gender it is of the person who is proposing it.
 
Desh said:
I have said from the begining that I did not object to us going into Afganistan.

I objected to Iraq from the day I heard the plan.

One of my objections was the abandoning of the efforts in Afganistan.

How ,pray tell, is it inconsistant of me to say the same now?
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We entered Afghanistan within 2 months of 9/11. We're still there. The problem isn't our military, it's Pakistan. Problems a plenty there, which have over the course of 7 years are still being addressed. Unless Obama makes a decision to also take on Pakistan, we can put all the troops we want there, it won't make a difference.
 
Desh said:
The whole thing was a calculated move to convience the American people that we needed to invade the middle east so they could get control of the oil.

I know this Bac. I also truely fear that this current government at least allowed the trade towers to be attacked.

The current facts are that we are in Afganistan and Iraq. Leaving Iraq using Afganistan as a kind of staging ground is the smart thing to do. Afganistan can be stablized before we go and they and us will be better off for the efforts.

To pretend you can just ignore the true current mess simply because it was created by a pack of sociopaths is foolish.

You and Obama dont have to agree on every policy issue. His job is NOT to just be YOUR president.
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Please let's be real. I don't expect him to agree with me on every issue, but WAR is a big ass issue and seemingly more important to me than you.

At what point have I asked or even slightly implied that he's supposed to be "my president?"

How is it the critque of Obama in an election is wrong and out of place?

How does that happen?

Escalataing the violence in Afghanistan is a very bad idea no matter who proposes it.
 
Kathianne said:
We entered Afghanistan within 2 months of 9/11. We're still there. The problem isn't our military, it's Pakistan. Problems a plenty there, which have over the course of 7 years are still being addressed. Unless Obama makes a decision to also take on Pakistan, we can put all the troops we want there, it won't make a difference.
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It was part of the complaints of the opposition to the Iraq invasion that Afganistan was being pushed aside and undermaned.

This has been the case for YEARS now and I just cant believe that all you people now cant remember this FACT!
 
Kathianne said:
We entered Afghanistan within 2 months of 9/11. We're still there. The problem isn't our military, it's Pakistan. Problems a plenty there, which have over the course of 7 years are still being addressed. Unless Obama makes a decision to also take on Pakistan, we can put all the troops we want there, it won't make a difference.
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Let's see the hands of those who think we should invade Pakistan.
 
Desh said:
It was part of the complaints of the opposition to the Iraq invasion that Afganistan was being pushed aside and undermaned.

This has been the case for YEARS now and I just cant believe that all you people now cant remember this FACT!
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I remember what was said .. didn't agree with it then, don't agree with it now.

I repeat .. PIPELINE.

We are there defending a pipeline and Bush installed a puppet government to help protect it.

Those are the facts.
 
blackascoal said:
Please let's be real. I don't expect him to agree with me on every issue, but WAR is a big ass issue and seemingly more important to me than you.

At what point have I asked or even slightly implied that he's supposed to be "my president?"

How is it the critque of Obama in an election is wrong and out of place?

How does that happen?

Escalataing the violence in Afghanistan is a very bad idea no matter who proposes it.
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A large troop influx will quell violence and not create it.

Please think back on the complaints both you and I had when Bush short shifted Iraq when the Generals were all saying he needed More troops to effect the control he wanted to have in Iraq after the invasion?

Why is it so many of you seem to forget the past?
 
blackascoal said:
I remember what was said .. didn't agree with it then, don't agree with it now.

I repeat .. PIPELINE.

We are there defending a pipeline and Bush installed a puppet government to help protect it.

Those are the facts.
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a natural gas pipeline that once again, made it all just footloose and fancy free for our oil companies, which also deal in natural gas....no?

Karzi worked for UNICOL right?

care
 
Desh said:
A large troop influx will quell violence and not create it.

Please think back on the complaints both you and I had when Bush short shifted Iraq when the Generals were all saying he needed More troops to effect the control he wanted to have in Iraq after the invasion?

Why is it so many of you seem to forget the past?
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Actually I was never with the "we need more troops in Iraq" thought. I've always believed that we need to get out of Iraq and never should have invaded it in the first place. More troops was never going to the the answer because we weren't fighting "al-queda", we were fighting the Iraqi people who wanted us out of their country. They knew us to be pirates, which is exactly what we were.

It's no different and I think no differently about Afghanistan, whose people are disposable pawns and fodder. More troops is not the answer in Afghanistan and the rest of the world is reluctant to place anymore of their troops into this quagmire.

We're repeating Iraq.
 
blackascoal said:
So why aren't you suggesting that we take your war into Pakistan?

Could it be because it won't be the "easy fight?"

Have you any sense of the history of Afghanistan and how the Soviets failed there?

How many dead bodies of US soldiers do you care to lose?

Do you have any intentions of joining up to fight a war you think is worth more Americans dying for? .. My guess is that you have no intentions of doing so.

Much "easier" to whine about the left being antiwar than to go share in the dying yourself.
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I have NO PROBLEM with taking this war into the border regions of Pakistan if our "allies" the Pakistani's can't do it themselves. If I wanted an easy fight I would support the clusterfuck in Iraq. Yes I am aware of what happened to the Soviets in Afghanistan and I also know that without a billion dollars a year from the US and Saudi Arabia the communists would still control that country. But for someone from a political bend that seems concerned with every oppressed person on the globe, you don't seem to be too concerned that life under the Taliban, which supports, aids and comforts terrorists, was miserable, especially for women and moderate Moslems.

Are you the first in you line to always worry about dead american soldiers first. Did your family cower in the dark in 1942 and wring their hands about how many would die in Japan and Germany? My bet is no. As for my intentions, I am 42 almost 43 and I did my time. The left is not just antiwar anymore, or even just skeptical, you are down right pacifists. You would stand by and nervously dance in a puddle of your own piss than EVER find anything worth taking a stand militarily for. It is the left, and their every present weakness militarily, and desire to redistribute wealth that has come close in the last 20 years to relegating the democratic party, with its majority of center left moderates, to a permenant minority party. There are Supreme Court nominees on the line this election. Affirmative action is on the cusp of disappearing, reproductive rights, criminal procedure rights, etc, ALL hinge on whether Stevens is replaced by an Alito/Scalia or someone more like Souter or Ginsburg.

FInally calling me center right does not make it so. It appears to me that you on the socialist left have run up on the same mindset as the religious right. If you don't tow our line, you are a conservative. Just like the RR that thinks every republican has to tow their line. A pox on both your houses. If one of the two parties would throw their fringe under the bus they would rule in this country for a century. I would love to see the left and right off crying somewhere in the corner saying "we know what is best for everyone if they would just let us show them". No thanks, both sides are far to authoritarian, and most american's don't like authoritarianism from either political dogma.
 
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