Owning guns is saving your life and property

The standard argument for keeping guns in the home is that they keep you safe, of course.


There are somewhere between 193 million and 250 million guns in the United States, according to the Brady Campaign (in 1981, during the attempted assassination of President Ronald Reagan, Press Secretary Jim Brady was shot and seriously wounded).


Studies show that, statistically speaking, a gun in the home is more dangerous than protective. Some facts, according to the Brady Campaign:

  • More children, teenagers and adult family members are killed by firearms in their own home than by criminal intruders.


  • Kellerman's study is full of holes and problems. Go to this link to see it shredded. http://www.guncite.com/gun-control-kellermann-3times.html

    Guns kept in the home for protection are 22 times more likely to be used to kill someone you know than to kill in self-defense, according to a 1998 study in The Journal of Trauma.

    The only way this statistic holds up to scrutiny is if you include suicides in the mix. And suicides have not been shown to be reduced by the removal of firearms. So this is a bogus, misleading piece of propaganda.

    The risk of homicide in the home is three times greater in households with guns.

    Again, this statistic comes from Kellerman's study, which has been thoroughly debunked. One of the problems with Kellerman's study is shown in this quote: "In this study, for example, 71 percent of the victims had high rates of past criminal activities." Hardly typical of the 60+ million gun owners.

    The unintentional firearm-related death rate for children up to age 14 is nine times higher in the United States than in 25 other countries combined, according to a study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    What countries? I could list 25 countries who do not allow private citizens to own guns, and the same could be said for numerous other nations.




    Not surprisingly, a study last year found that homicide rates are highest in states where more households have guns.


    Topping that list: Wyoming, Alaska and Montana.

    The problem with that is that the guns predominantly owned in Wyoming, Alaska and Montana are hunting guns. Also, apparently no one bothered to check the accuracy of these statements.

    When you rank the states according to per capita murder rates, from highest to lowest, Wyoming, Alaska and Montana come in 38th, 31st, and 34th, respectively. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRord

    [/QUOTE]
 
Gun owners are much more likely to be shot than non gun owners. This is prob good.

First of all, that is bullshit. And second of all, you claim to want fewer murders and then say someone being shot is probably good? Fuck you, Topper.

BTW, use your vaunted intellect and education to do a little research on Kellerman's study (the source for your factoid) and then come back and we'll talk.
 
Still using Kellerman's study? Here is yet another site shooting holes in Kellerman's study.

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/triple.html


"Shooting holes", LOL.


No science, just denial.


No wonder you wanted to believe it.


This quote from your link was interesting, though: "easily 20% of people asked about gun ownership deny ownership even when they do own a gun. Even more will when the question is being asked by or for their government. A 20% false reply rate would require a 25% augmentation of the number who actually admitted possession. Adding 25% to the number of control subjects and proxies that admitted gun ownership gives a number that is practically the same percentage as that percentage of proxies who admitted that the homicide victims' households had guns. This would indicate that households experiencing homicide are no more likely than average households to have guns, completely invalidating all the researchers' claims."



Does that mean that gunlovers are paranoid liars, fearful of being stripped of their guns?


 
"Shooting holes", LOL.


No science, just denial.


No wonder you wanted to believe it.


This quote from your link was interesting, though: "easily 20% of people asked about gun ownership deny ownership even when they do own a gun. Even more will when the question is being asked by or for their government. A 20% false reply rate would require a 25% augmentation of the number who actually admitted possession. Adding 25% to the number of control subjects and proxies that admitted gun ownership gives a number that is practically the same percentage as that percentage of proxies who admitted that the homicide victims' households had guns. This would indicate that households experiencing homicide are no more likely than average households to have guns, completely invalidating all the researchers' claims."



Does that mean that gunlovers are paranoid liars, fearful of being stripped of their guns?



Is that the only problem you have with the critique of Kellerman's study? If so, then you should agree it is next to worthless.

I would think that the part that said "In this study, for example, 71 percent of the victims had high rates of past criminal activities." would be far more telling about the study.
 
The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.
Firearm total for 2009? 215

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_15.html


Nice selective cherrypicking.

Does this include the number of felons shot and wounded, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen? No, it does not.

Does this include the number of times the threat of being shot, during the commission of a felony, my a private citizen, stopped a crime? No, it does not.

Also, if you consider that most felons do not commit only one single crime, those 215 shootings, by private citizens, probably stopped 5x that many robberies and at least that many murders. Just say "Thank you, gun owners" and we'll keep up the good work.


From: http://www.nraila.org/issues/articles/read.aspx?id=125


"The February 1988 issue of Social Problems published the first major effort actually to measure the protective value of firearms in America, by estimating the extent to which guns are used for protection, and what the result of attempted protective uses is. That study, by Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck--and summarized in the July 1988 issue of American Rifleman--relied upon several national and state surveys to estimate that nearly one million adults each year use firearms for protection from criminals. The survey most relied upon by Prof. Kleck was conducted by Peter Hart Associates for an anti-gun organization, the National Alliance Against Violence (NAAV), since the Hart survey was, as of 1988, the most sophisticated at actually measuring protective uses of handguns, despite some limitations. For example, it asked only about protective use of handguns, so that long-gun estimates had to be made based upon various estimates on relative long-gun to handgun protective use."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818798/posts

There is an example of a school shooting that was stopped by armed civilian students. Not the cops.
 
Is that the only problem you have with the critique of Kellerman's study? If so, then you should agree it is next to worthless.

I would think that the part that said "In this study, for example, 71 percent of the victims had high rates of past criminal activities." would be far more telling about the study.


It's funny that you believe that what you think is more relevant and valid than scientific research.


Having a gun in your home because you're scared of crime is OK with me.


Do you and your cousins stay home, manning the loopholes in shifts all the time to defend your lil' bunker from the criminal element and/or the imaginary government gun-grabbers?
 
The right of self protection is only valid as recognized by law; as many that have been convicted of manslaughter for defending themselves with a gun have learned.
 
Nice selective cherrypicking. Does this include the number of felons shot and wounded, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen? No, it does not.

Does this include the number of times the threat of being shot, during the commission of a felony, my a private citizen, stopped a crime? No, it does not. Also, if you consider that most felons do not commit only one single crime, those 215 shootings, by private citizens, probably stopped 5x that many robberies and at least that many murders. Just say "Thank you, gun owners" and we'll keep up the good work. From: http://www.nraila.org/issues/articles/read.aspx?id=125 "The February 1988 issue of Social Problems published the first major effort actually to measure the protective value of firearms in America, by estimating the extent to which guns are used for protection, and what the result of attempted protective uses is. That study, by Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck--and summarized in the July 1988 issue of American Rifleman--relied upon several national and state surveys to estimate that nearly one million adults each year use firearms for protection from criminals. The survey most relied upon by Prof. Kleck was conducted by Peter Hart Associates for an anti-gun organization, the National Alliance Against Violence (NAAV), since the Hart survey was, as of 1988, the most sophisticated at actually measuring protective uses of handguns, despite some limitations. For example, it asked only about protective use of handguns, so that long-gun estimates had to be made based upon various estimates on relative long-gun to handgun protective use." http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818798/posts There is an example of a school shooting that was stopped by armed civilian students. Not the cops.

Jump to unsupported conclusions much? That was a rhetorical question, so don't lie.


Admit that your motive for hoarding guns is fear.


Fear that the boogeyman - a criminal or imaginary government gun grabber - is gonna getcha!





"Gary Kleck's study of defensive gun use has been shown by numerous scholars to not be plausible.









His '2.5 million defensive gun uses a year' has been called "the most outrageous number mentioned in a policy discussion by an elected official." (Cook, Ludwig, Hemenway, 1997)









This problem of extrapolation can be noted in the fact that Kleck reported that 207,000 times a year the gun defender thought he wounded or killed the offender.









Yet that would be twice the number of people treated in emergency rooms each year for non-fatal firearm injuries and most of these people are victims of assault, suicide attempts and accidental shootings rather than criminals shot by defenders.









Study after study has found that a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of homicide and suicide, and while guns are used to prevent some crimes they are used far more often to commit crimes.







Guns are used to kill, maim, rob, assault, threaten and intimidate far more often than they are used in self-defense."







Nobody wants to take your guns.







Nobody is coming to "get you".







You will likely never use a gun in self-defense.







You will never repel the US government or a foreign invader. Even if you were to try, with your tiny arsenal, you'd be overpowered in short order.









The main value of your pitiful armory is to serve as a psychological crutch to allay the crippling fear that many gunlovers live in.







Keep your guns, and you may shoot yourself or someone you know, as is more likely to happen.









 



Having a gun in your home because you're scared of crime is OK with me.


Do you and your cousins stay home, manning the loopholes in shifts all the time to defend your lil' bunker from the criminal element and/or the imaginary government gun-grabbers?


Look, as I have shown numerous times, there are, in fact, quite a few politicians who want to remove private ownership of guns. So we gun owners stay aware of legislation aimed at removing our 2nd Amendment rights. It is not as if we sit around worrying. We are simply aware. Despite your best efforts, you have shown no evidence of paranoia. You just try to use strawman arguments and sarcasm in place of debate technique. I understand that limitation in you.
 
It's funny that you believe that what you think is more relevant and valid than scientific research.

What scientific research would that be? Kellermann's study? Surely you are not referring to that as scientific research.
 
I think one of the main points regarding the ownership of guns is being ignored. We can all play statistics and what-ifs, it gets us nowhere. The fact is that the desire to own a device for killing ones fellow man is tantamount to actually doing the deed. All gun owners are therefore potential murderers (that is not to say that other people are not).
So why is it Americans who have fallen in love with violence? It really can be nothing more than a childish naivety and an imposed sense of fear. You are not Rambo (which other nation would make such a series of films?) You are not John Wayne. Some Americans have almost deified the concept of violence.
There is excuse upon excuse with the what if someone was about to rape your sister, yet how many sisters have had their chastity saved by a bullet? Just excuses so the children can play real life Rambo. It may come as a shock to some that when you are shot you do not immediately get up and dust yourself down as if you were a cartoon character.
I would also be critical of those (sorry Mr TTTT) who show videos of idiots doing stupid things. Those videos give the loonies an argument and encourage the production of irrelevant facts and statistics.
No, the desire to own a device for killing living things is not acceptable and you know full well that you use whichever ammendment it is, to give you license to behave like children.
The most anti-social words you will hear (not only regarding guns) are, 'I have a right ....' and 'I tell it like it is...', and 'No one's gonna stop me ...'
Here endeth the first lesson.
Have a nahce day, yorl.
 
I have a question. If a gun is used to protect one from robbery or home invasion how do they get the gun in time to stop the perpetrator? I can understand if it's in the middle of the night and one sleeps with a gun in the night stand or under their pillow and retrieves it when they hear a noise but how do they get their gun in the case of a home invasion?

A person knocks on the door. The owner opens the door and that's it. The invaders are there and overpower the person. Where is the gun?

As for robbery most robberies take place when people are not home.

Unless one carries the gun around with them I don't quite follow how a gun in the home serves a purpose. On the other hand I can see the reason to carry when out and about, especially for women at night.
 
Look, as I have shown numerous times, there are, in fact, quite a few politicians who want to remove private ownership of guns. So we gun owners stay aware of legislation aimed at removing our 2nd Amendment rights. It is not as if we sit around worrying. We are simply aware. Despite your best efforts, you have shown no evidence of paranoia. You just try to use strawman arguments and sarcasm in place of debate technique. I understand that limitation in you.

No evidence?



http://www.gunbanobama.com/

http://www.prisonplanet.com/obamas-gun-ban-list-is-out.html

http://www.nraila.org/legislation/read.aspx?id=4227

http://www.infowars.com/obamas-gun-ban-list-is-out/



There are thousands of fearmongering websites speading panic among the nutbase of paranoid gunlovers.



Do you deny it?
 
Admit that your motive for hoarding guns is fear.

My motive for owning the guns I do is mainly enjoyment. I enjoy shooting. I enjoy hunting. I enjoy collecting pieces of historical significance. The ability for me or my loved ones to defend themselves against intruders is one of the least important issues. But to dismiss the existence of criminals willing to break in to my home completely is dishonest.


Fear that the boogeyman - a criminal or imaginary government gun grabber - is gonna getcha!

No fear here. I have a very happy life, regardless of your projections.




"Gary Kleck's study of defensive gun use has been shown by numerous scholars to not be plausible.

A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if they "had not used a gun for protection." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 162,000 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."

Paper: "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun." By Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Fall 1995. http://www.law.northwestern.edu/jclc/backissues/86-1.html

Page 160: "The present survey ... was carefully designed to correct all of the known correctable or avoidable flaws of previous surveys.... We interviewed a large nationally representative sample...."

Pages 160-161: "A professional telephone polling firm, Research Network of Tallahassee, Florida, carried out the sampling and interviewing."

Page 161: "Each interview began with a few general 'throat-clearing' questions about problems facing the R's community and crime. The interviewers then asked the following question: 'Within the past five years, have you yourself or another member of your household used a gun, even if it was not fired, for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere? Please do not include military service, police work, or work as a security guard.'"



A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:
• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"

From: Book: Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms (Expanded Edition). By James D. Wright and Peter D. Rossi. Aldine De Gruyter, 1986 (Expanded edition published in 1994).

Study after study has found that a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of homicide and suicide, and while guns are used to prevent some crimes they are used far more often to commit crimes.

Study after study? Other than Kellermann's, which Ii have already shown to have been debunked, what studies show this?


Guns are used to kill, maim, rob, assault, threaten and intimidate far more often than they are used in self-defense."

On this we agree. Where we disagree is on the solution. You think disarming law abiding citizens will accomplish it. But if someone is willing to "...kill, maim, rob, assault, threaten and intimidate...", why on earth do you believe they would obey gun control laws?

Nobody wants to take your guns.

Quite the contrary, I have shown you numerous quotes from powerful politicians showing they do, indeed, want to take guns from law abiding citizens.

Nobody is coming to "get you".

I have never believed that anyone is coming to "get me" in the sense you are trying to accuse me of.

You will likely never use a gun in self-defense.

I will likely never use my fire extinguishers either. But I still like to have them around. As I said before, I live in a rural area and I work out of town most of the time. You would have me leave my family's safety to chance and the good will of criminals? lol Not freakin likely. No, they will probably never use a firearm in self defense. But that is because they will likely never need to do so.

You will never repel the US government or a foreign invader. Even if you were to try, with your tiny arsenal, you'd be overpowered in short order.

You really think that? Hmmm, perhaps you should study history more carefully. From the vietnamese resistance against the US and the afghani resistance against the USSR, to the current issue our military has had with "insurgents", the abilities of a small group of armed citizens has been proven over and over.

If you research the effect a sniper has on the battlefield, and then compare what most hunters do to what a sniper does, it is easy to see how effective it could be. Now before you begin attempting to ridicule me for some survivalist mentality, you brought the subject up by making a claim, to which I replied.

The main value of your pitiful armory is to serve as a psychological crutch to allay the crippling fear that many gunlovers live in.

My armory, in addition to being monetarily valuable, provides me and my family with hours of entertainment and a good portion of the meat in our diet. I need no crutch because I have no fears that guns would allay (with the exception of sleeping better when I am out of town).

Keep your guns, and you may shoot yourself or someone you know, as is more likely to happen.

Quoting the Kellermann study again? lol

No, we will not shoot ourselves or someone we know. We all follow basic safety rules. In fact, my daughter will ask to leave a shooting range if others show ignorance in their gun handling procedures.
 
I think one of the main points regarding the ownership of guns is being ignored. We can all play statistics and what-ifs, it gets us nowhere. The fact is that the desire to own a device for killing ones fellow man is tantamount to actually doing the deed. All gun owners are therefore potential murderers (that is not to say that other people are not).
So why is it Americans who have fallen in love with violence? It really can be nothing more than a childish naivety and an imposed sense of fear. You are not Rambo (which other nation would make such a series of films?) You are not John Wayne. Some Americans have almost deified the concept of violence.
There is excuse upon excuse with the what if someone was about to rape your sister, yet how many sisters have had their chastity saved by a bullet? Just excuses so the children can play real life Rambo. It may come as a shock to some that when you are shot you do not immediately get up and dust yourself down as if you were a cartoon character.
I would also be critical of those (sorry Mr TTTT) who show videos of idiots doing stupid things. Those videos give the loonies an argument and encourage the production of irrelevant facts and statistics.
No, the desire to own a device for killing living things is not acceptable and you know full well that you use whichever ammendment it is, to give you license to behave like children.
The most anti-social words you will hear (not only regarding guns) are, 'I have a right ....' and 'I tell it like it is...', and 'No one's gonna stop me ...'
Here endeth the first lesson.
Have a nahce day, yorl.

Most of my guns are for hunting. No shame there. I perform a vital part of the conservation efforts, both by my actions and by the extra taxes I pay.

I am not a violent man. I would never want to shoot anyone. But what is far worse than shooting someone is knowing my loved ones suffered or died because of my refusal.
 
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