Scientism

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't see why it matters if thoughts and decisions bubble up through our subconscious nanoseconds before they enter our conscious thoughts.

I don't see how that supposedly proves we are meat robots or automotons . I was under the understanding that ever since Freud, the subconscious was considered part of our personality and individuality; that the subconscious is shaped by experience and knowledge just like the active conciousness is.

P.S. there was a good band in the 1990s called Meat Puppets.

It doesn't matter since our subconscious is ourselves. It's part of each of us. Nothing magical or abnormal. The main problem is ignorance...and a too much mental illness. Notice that it's not a far jump from "listen to your intuition" to "the voices in your head". One is normal, the other, not so much.

It doesn't. IMO, those who propose the idea are speaking from ignorance. Agreed on Freud. I'm not a big fan of Psycho-Analytic psychology, but it's a legitimate facet of psychology.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I think scientism has largely been discredited. Except by those who have an abiding faith that all true knowledge and the answers to everything are accessible by higher mathmatics and particle physics, and that our souped up chimpanzee brains even know the right questions to ask.

Agreed. It sits on the same shelf with phrenology...and, in another decade or two, racsim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

Phrenology (from Ancient Greek φρήν (phrēn) 'mind', and λόγος (logos) 'knowledge') is a pseudoscience that involves the measurement of bumps on the skull to predict mental traits.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed. It sits on the same shelf with phrenology...and, in another decade or two, racsim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

Science is the best methodology we have for acquiring knowledge about the mechanistic properties of natural phenomena. But not for explaining where the natural laws laws and cosmos come from or why they exist.

Science almost totally useless in questions of morality, ethics, aesthetics. And that's okay, the sentient person does not look to science as some kind of voodoo magic that provides the answers to everything.

 

[Cypress]

It doesn't matter since our subconscious is ourselves. It's part of each of us. Nothing magical or abnormal. The main problem is ignorance...and a too much mental illness. Notice that it's not a far jump from "listen to your intuition" to "the voices in your head". One is normal, the other, not so much.

It doesn't. IMO, those who propose the idea are speaking from ignorance. Agreed on Freud. I'm not a big fan of Psycho-Analytic psychology, but it's a legitimate facet of psychology.

It seems to me that intuition, instinct, imagination can be cultivated, fine tuned, or improved. So I can't see the argument for how we are prisoners to deterministic forces completely beyond our control.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Science is the best methodology we have for acquiring knowledge about the mechanistic properties of natural phenomena. But not for explaining where the natural laws laws and cosmos come from or why they exist.

Science almost totally useless in questions of morality, ethics, aesthetics. And that's okay, the sentient person does not look to science as some kind of voodoo magic that provides the answers to everything.

Agreed on all points. Science allows us to understand the laws and dynamics of the Universe. Understanding the whys and our place in the Universe is a different matter.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

It seems to me that intuition, instinct, imagination can be cultivated, fine tuned, or improved. So I can't see the argument for how we are prisoners to deterministic forces completely beyond our control.

Agreed.

The term "Woman's Intuition" is archaic since all people have the ability to be in tune with their own minds. In the past, Western men were educated to be purely logical; strict linear thought. They were actually taught to disregard anything that couldn't be proved through science. Women were not educated and left to themselves (unless it was "Finishing School". LOL) As such, they were able to develop naturally and use both the logical side of their minds (albeit not highly developed through education) and their non-linear side. In America, this often resulted in seeing women as both ditzy but also "witchy" due to their intuitive abilities that defied logic.

While intuition was rare among men, it was emphasized in police detectives and other investigators. Experienced hunters often use their "instinct" to hunt, meaning they don't have a "logical" explanation of why they know where their prey will be headed or located. They go "with their gut".

IMO, a person's intuition can be exercised like a muscle; the more it's used, the stronger it will become. Mistakes will be made, but mistakes are important since that's how we learn. The more mistakes, the more we each learn. The key is to avoid making fatal errors. LOL

 

[Cypress]

Agreed on all points. Science allows us to understand the laws and dynamics of the Universe. Understanding the whys and our place in the Universe is a different matter.

I think science sometimes gets put on this grand pedestal as the ultimate arbiter of everything because of it's association with incredible and mind boggling technological advances in the last two centuries.

Science has been so transformative, it naturally gets elevated to status of super special significance.

But my question is, does knowing how to operate a smart phone, type on a keyboard, or use a microwave oven really give us true knowledge, understanding, and insight? Or is it just button pushing? 99 percent of people do not know anything tangible about quantum mechanics, integral calculus, or cellular microbiology, and on a day to day basis they don't really need to know about it.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I think science sometimes gets put on this grand pedestal as the ultimate arbiter of everything because of it's association with incredible and mind boggling technological advances in the last two centuries.

Science has been so transformative, it naturally gets elevated to status of super special significance.

But my question is, does knowing how to operate a smart phone, type on a keyboard, or use a microwave oven really give us true knowledge, understanding, and insight? Or is it just button pushing? 99 percent of people do not know anything tangible about quantum mechanics, integral calculus, or cellular microbiology, and on a day to day basis they don't really need to know about it.

Agreed about pedestal. It also foments fear from the ignorant because they don't understand it. Example: COVID vaccine.

Agreed on how the Scientific Method has transformed our world from an agrarian planet into a highly advanced and industrialized planet. As such, many can put it on a higher level of significance, albeit sometimes an overrated one. Mistakes are often made from either ignorance or arrogance. Examples: Thalidomide, Chernobyl and Space Shuttle Challenger.

It doesn't. We can be trained monkeys using the tech. Understanding it or, more importantly IMO, having the insight to look ahead on how best to use the tech takes a higher level of understanding than a chimp can muster.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed.

The term "Woman's Intuition" is archaic since all people have the ability to be in tune with their own minds. In the past, Western men were educated to be purely logical; strict linear thought. They were actually taught to disregard anything that couldn't be proved through science. Women were not educated and left to themselves (unless it was "Finishing School". LOL) As such, they were able to develop naturally and use both the logical side of their minds (albeit not highly developed through education) and their non-linear side. In America, this often resulted in seeing women as both ditzy but also "witchy" due to their intuitive abilities that defied logic.

While intuition was rare among men, it was emphasized in police detectives and other investigators. Experienced hunters often use their "instinct" to hunt, meaning they don't have a "logical" explanation of why they know where their prey will be headed or located. They go "with their gut".

IMO, a person's intuition can be exercised like a muscle; the more it's used, the stronger it will become. Mistakes will be made, but mistakes are important since that's how we learn. The more mistakes, the more we each learn. The key is to avoid making fatal errors. LOL

I doubt that human understanding and wisdom can be strictly based on the Enlightenment project of logic and rationality.

I read an article last week about the premninent German physicist Erwin Schrodinger, and how he tried to incorporate Eastern philosophy and mysticism into his cultural framework of western empiricism.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I doubt that human understanding and wisdom can be strictly based on the Enlightenment project of logic and rationality.

I read an article last week about the premninent German physicist Erwin Schrodinger, and how he tried to incorporate Eastern philosophy and mysticism into his cultural framework of western empiricism.

Agreed, but it's clearly a separate area of human knowledge. We're unlikely to reach the stars on intuition. Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson once said something like "Don't teach kids how to build ships. Inspire them to reach for the stars." I think the comment means inspiration and human drive comes first, the tech second.

According to those who believe we are all meat robots; they're more interested in surviving, eating and fucking just like the rest of the animals on the planet.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed, but it's clearly a separate area of human knowledge. We're unlikely to reach the stars on intuition. Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson once said something like "Don't teach kids how to build ships. Inspire them to reach for the stars." I think the comment means inspiration and human drive comes first, the tech second.

According to those who believe we are all meat robots; they're more interested in surviving, eating and fucking just like the rest of the animals on the planet.

Yes, technology has to be based on the experimental method.

I have just never found any mathmatical equations that give me true knowledge and wisdom of justice, freedom, equality, courage, fairness, temperance, or humility.

Humans uniquely have reason, abstract thinking, advanced language. Which makes any comparison of us with ground squirrels dubious at best.

That is, if we choose to cultivate the gifts we have. It seems Trump only thinks about the primal instincts of material comfort, power, and sex, and I don't think his vocabulary exceeds 200 words of English. So he could be closer emotionally and ethically to a feral hog than to an advanced and cultivated sentient human.

 

[BidenPresident]

you have no idea what your next thought is going to be because you can't think it until it shows up in consciousness.

But the thinking is willed and directed. Otherwise we would not be able to walk or use our hands.

 

[BidenPresident]

If you're working and have a thought about lunch, from your perspective, it came out of nowhere, almost like someone whispered it in your ear.

My perspective is the exact opposite. Around lunchtime I think about what I want to eat. Then I plan. Eat at home? Go out? Go to grocery store? Quite deliberate and rational.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

... If you're working and have a thought about lunch, from your perspective, it came out of nowhere, almost like someone whispered it in your ear. If you're trying to decide where to eat lunch, you're thinking about different names of restaurants... McDonald's, Chili's, Arby's....the names just appear in consciousness, but you have no idea why THOSE specific names appear and not Pizza Hut.

Do you have free will to pick a restaurant if the name doesn't occur to you to pick?

My perspective is the exact opposite. Around lunchtime I think about what I want to eat. Then I plan. Eat at home? Go out? Go to grocery store? Quite deliberate and rational.

It's your subconscious. Nothing magical about it. Your body registers hunger and the subconscious sends a signal to your conscious. It's still all part of "You", just a different part. Nothing about it negates Free Will.

 

[BidenPresident]

Do you have free will to pick a restaurant if the name doesn't occur to you to pick?

You will have to explain what you mean by free will.
It is one of the most incoherent concepts in our language.
To me, free will refers to any action that is not coerced.
Lack of free will means I am physically forced to go to a particular restaurant I do not want to go to.

 

[BidenPresident]

Doc Dutch=Asshole of the Forum

 

[ZenMode]

My perspective is the exact opposite. Around lunchtime I think about what I want to eat. Then I plan. Eat at home? Go out? Go to grocery store? Quite deliberate and rational.

But do you, your self, know you're going to think about lunch before the thought lunch enter your consciousness or does the thought suddenly appear? Again, we all feel like there is a self that exists outside of our stream of consciousness and that self is consciously creating thoughts, but if you really pay attention to how thoughts arise, you'll notice that the just appear. For example, of I ask you to think of a city....any city in the world, you have no idea which names are going to come to mind UNTIL they come to mind. There's no separate self that has visibility to the neurological workings of your brain and can know what city names are going to enter your consciousness. If you spend the next 4 hours thinking of city names, you aren't free to think of a city that your brain doesn't push into your consciousness.

 

[BidenPresident]

But do you, your self, know you're going to think about before the thought lunch enter your consciousness or does the thought suddenly appear? Again, we all feel like there is a self that exists outside of our stream of consciousness and that self is consciously creating thoughts, but if you really pay attention to how thoughts arise, you'll notice that the just appear. For example, of I ask you to think of a city....any city in the world, you have no idea which names are going to come to mind UNTIL they come to mind. There's no separate self that has visibility to the neurological workings of your brain and can know what city names are going to enter your consciousness. If you spend the next 4 hours thinking of city names, you aren't free to think of a city that your brain doesn't push into your consciousness.

I never agreed with you that the mind is a stream of consciousness. As I said, William James coined that phrase and I do not agree with it.

 

[BidenPresident]

There's no separate self that has visibility to the neurological workings of your brain

I never asserted that.

 

[ZenMode]

I never agreed with you that the mind is a stream of consciousness. As I said, William James coined that phrase and I do not agree with it.

Sure, but if you pay attention to your subjective experience, you can see that you have no control over what is your next thought. It just appears in consciousness. That is true of every thought that you have. If I asked you to pick a city, you have no idea what names are going to occur to you before they occur to you. If you're trying to make a decision on something, the thoughts that go into that decision just appear in consciousness also and you have no idea what they are going to be until they do. You are not able to stand outside of your stream of conscious thought. You are the stream.