Scientism

ZenMode said:
If science allowed us to transplant brains, and your brain was moved to another body, would "you" still be replying to me?
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A person is a person.
I don't have a mysterious theory of being.

For example, if you ask an AI system if it is conscious and it answers yes, then it is conscious.
 
ZenMode said:
If science allowed us to transplant brains, and your brain was moved to another body, would "you" still be replying to me?
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Yes.

Do you have fantasies about switching bodies, Mode? Having no more responsibilities in your present body? No more decisions? No more being trapped in your current life?
 
Doc Dutch said:
Non sequitur, kid.

Our "stream of consciousness" is us, our individual selves, and that self can make choices for itself. You can choose to try to seduce the boss's wife, rob a liquor store or leap off a bridge. If seen by someone else, they can choose to try to stop you, but that has nothing to do with your own choices. Your own free will.
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If the stream of consciousness is us, and there is no separate self that is creating thoughts, filtering thoughts and generally actively managing the thoughts to make choices, where do you find free will?
 
BidenPresident said:
A person is a person.
I don't have a mysterious theory of being.

For example, if you ask an AI system if it is conscious and it answers yes, then it is conscious.
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I understand that a person IS a person. I'm just trying to determine what it is that is you, if there isn't a separate self inside your brain. If it's not your body, is it your memories that make you "you"? In other words, as long as you have your memories, you can be in any body?
 
ZenMode said:
I'm just trying to determine what it is that is you, if there isn't a separate self inside your brain. If it's not your body, is it your memories that make you "you"? In other words, as long as you have your memories, you can be in any body?
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I am not really understanding the question. As Descartes said, I think therefore I am. If I can be addressed and respond, that is all that matters.

Someone told me they had memory of past lives and believed in reincarnation. Plato thought there was a soul that came into a body and left it at death. Those theories never made sense to me.
 
BidenPresident said:
I am not really understanding the question. As Descartes said, I think therefore I am. If I can be addressed and respond, that is all that matters.

Someone told me they had memory of past lives and believed in reincarnation. Plato thought there was a soul that came into a body and left it at death. Those theories never made sense to me.
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Ok. Not everyone is interested in digging into all topics particularly those that may be uncomfortable.
 
ZenMode said:
If the stream of consciousness is us, and there is no separate self that is creating thoughts, filtering thoughts and generally actively managing the thoughts to make choices, where do you find free will?
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You're free to have any fantasies you like, Mode. You're free to believe you have no responsibility for your own actions. That there is "no separate self" and, therefore, you cannot be held accountable.
 
Doc Dutch said:
You're free to have any fantasies you like, Mode. You're free to believe you have no responsibility for your own actions. That there is "no separate self" and, therefore, you cannot be held accountable.
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Sigh.... I've said multiple times that not having free will has nothing to do with accountability. If the genes and life experiences have made someone a mass murder, their threat to society is real and free will is irrelevant.
 
ZenMode said:
Sigh.... I've said multiple times that not having free will has nothing to do with accountability. If the genes and life experiences have made someone a mass murder, their threat to society is real and free will is irrelevant.
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Actually, it does. Either you accept responsibility for yourself or it's someone else's fault, son. If you want to blame others, fine. Most Trumpers on JPP do exactly the same thing along with most militant atheists...the latter of whom tend to be under 30. JPP Trumpers tend to be over 60.

Thanks for advocating executing people who have "bad genes" and bad "life experiences" as a service to humanity. LOL
 
Doc Dutch said:
Actually, it does. Either you accept responsibility for yourself or it's someone else's fault, son. If you want to blame others, fine. Most Trumpers on JPP do exactly the same thing along with most militant atheists...the latter of whom tend to be under 30.
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I couldn't care less if a murder accepts responsibility for their actions as long as they're locked away.

Though, whether or not the do accept responsibility is completely outside of their control.
 
ZenMode said:
Ok. Not everyone is interested in digging into all topics particularly those that may be uncomfortable.
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Nothing uncomfortable. You claim there is no free will and fail to show why. Saying so is not proof. You think there is some mysterious force making everyone act the way they do. You cannot explain what that mysterious force it. Your view is no different from saying it is God's will.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Agreed it's one way to go against the flow.

Most "free will" arguments are religious based. Note that most anti-free will arguments are atheistic in nature. That we are just meat robots not worth any more than the sum of our parts. That "when you're dead, you're dead".

I believe there is a logical, natural argument for free will. At least in part. Sure, we are party the sum of our experiences, we do some things without thinking. We have limited control over our thoughts and dreams. Still, what separates us from the animals is our conscience...at least some of us. Others, not so much. LOL
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Free will got associated with Saint Augustine, so there probably is some religious overtones.

After reading this post, I had a choice to compose a written response or not.
 
Cypress said:
Free will got associated with Saint Augustine, so there probably is some religious overtones.

After reading this post, I had a choice to compose a written response or not.
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Probably? Without free will, how do you rationalize, as a Christian, Jesus coming back to earth and throwing non-believers into a lake of fire? How do you condemn people to eternal torture for sins?
 
The problem is, if you say there is no free will, I do not see any consequences. My belief that I choose to open a beer is a delusion of free will? So what?
 
BidenPresident said:
Nothing uncomfortable. You claim there is no free will and fail to show why. Saying so is not proof. You think there is some mysterious force making everyone act the way they do. You cannot explain what that mysterious force it. Your view is no different from saying it is God's will.
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As long as you define "self" so ambiguously, there's no way to have a deeper discussion.
 
ZenMode said:
As long as you define "self" so ambiguously, there's no way to have a deeper discussion.
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You are obsessed with defining "self." I never said it was a problem.
And I never said the concept of free will depends on a concept of self.
I said this right at the start. You clearly did not understand.
 
ZenMode said:
As long as you define "self" so ambiguously, there's no way to have a deeper discussion.
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As far as "deep." You just repeat the same thing over and over. No free will. You cannot explain why that is true. I have offered many examples and you ignore them.

I think I choose to have a beer on Saturday. You say it was not my choice. You failed to explain what caused me to want a beer. At birth my genes made me have a beer at a specific time? Is this your evidence?
 
ZenMode said:
I couldn't care less if a murder accepts responsibility for their actions as long as they're locked away.

Though, whether or not the do accept responsibility is completely outside of their control.
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^^^
One vote for locking people up because of what they might do based solely by their genes and experiences.

Sorry, dude, but I disagree. People are, indeed, a product of their genes and experiences. Sane people know people are more than the sum of their genetics and experiences, not just self-programming meat robots. A dog is a product of their genes and experiences, but that's as far as they go. Humans, mainly the sane ones, can see ahead. They plan, think and decide what they'll do, usually because of what they want along with intelligence and education. Dogs don't plan. They just react. Buring a bone or covering their food is an experience and/or gene reaction common to dogs.

Coincidentally, dogs are in perfect zen. Totally in the present. They react to past experiences and their genes, but live in the present at all times. Many Western people have a problem with living in the present. They are too busy living in the future or thinking about the past.

While some can claim perpetual zazen is a perfect existence, I disagree. Might as well be dead.

Best, IMO, to live in the moment as much as possible, only using our uncontrollable thoughts and past experiences when the need arises. This allows us to plan ahead. Something a dog never does. They don't save their food, they eat it until full or it's gone*. Sane people can plan ahead and decide whether and how much food to save. The smarter or more educated a person is at the time, the more likely they'll make good choices. Mentally ill or stupid people, not so much. A lot of them were on the Capitol steps 6JAN21.

Experience and intelligent free will put mankind on the Moon...something dogs can't do. Go Humans! :thup:


*Food hoarding is instinctual. Genetic.https://www.thesprucepets.com/why-dogs-bury-bones-4580377
 
ZenMode said:
Probably? Without free will, how do you rationalize, as a Christian, Jesus coming back to earth and throwing non-believers into a lake of fire? How do you condemn people to eternal torture for sins?
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I didn't see what an alleged second coming of Jesus has to do with free will

Dante's conception of hell was a work of literature, and even there the virtuous pagans were not sent to hell, they had a comfortable afterlife in limbo.

The Dante version of hell is not universally, maybe not even widely accepted in world Christianity.
 
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