Scientism

Doc Dutch said:
You don't choose who you are attracted to, but you do choose what you do about it. Example: being attracted to the boss's wife is one thing, trying to seduce her is a conscious action. People like Mode who can't control their impulses would try to do it anyway.
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I never said you can't control your impulses. I do say that the degree to which you control your impulses, which is to say "actions", is determined by your thoughts (and maybe a genetic component), which you don't control.
 
ZenMode said:
Right. Everything about us is ultimately outside of our control because it comes from either genes, which we obviously have no control over, or external influences, which we have no control over.
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That is an extreme theory in the realm of metaphysics. If it is true, it is compatible with free will. There is no standard to discriminate.

My genes forcing me to drink my beer at 3:34 pm on Saturday is logically equivalent to my deciding to drink a beer at 3:34 pm.
 
ZenMode said:
I never said you can't control your impulses. I do say that the degree to which you control your impulses, which is to say "actions", is determined by your thoughts (and maybe a genetic component), which you don't control.
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Bullshit. That's been your entire point; no free will. You have no control over your thoughts and that you have no choice but to act on those thoughts.

Get your story straight, son.
 
Doc Dutch said:
You don't choose who you are attracted to, but you do choose what you do about it. Example: being attracted to the boss's wife is one thing, trying to seduce her is a conscious action. People like Mode who can't control their impulses would try to do it anyway.
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Exactly, I think I wrote my post incorrectly.

I meant that I don't believe I had no choice in choosing my wife. Or my career
 
Cypress said:
Exactly, I think I wrote my post incorrectly.

I meant that I don't believe I had no choice in choosing my wife. Or my career
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So far it appears only Mode thinks we have no choice, no free will. Everyone else on this thread agrees that sane individuals have choices in their actions.
 
Doc Dutch said:
So far it appears only Mode thinks we have no choice, no free will. Everyone else on this thread agrees that sane individuals have choices in their actions.
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I always suspected the premise that there is no such thing as free will or choice was concocted by a school of philosophers who wanted to be edgy and controversial. That's one way of attracting attention to your academic career.
 
BidenPresident said:
That is an extreme theory in the realm of metaphysics. If it is true, it is compatible with free will. There is no standard to discriminate.

My genes forcing me to drink my beer at 3:34 pm on Saturday is logically equivalent to my deciding to drink a beer at 3:34 pm.
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When people think of free will, they generally believe that they're conscious self is in control, not that they are driven by forces that they don't control. That's one of the reasons that a claim that free will doesn't exist is difficult for people to accept.
 
ZenMode said:
When people think of free will, they generally believe that they're conscious self is in control, not that they are driven by forces that they don't control. That's one of the reasons that a claim that free will doesn't exist is difficult for people to accept.
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I never said free will means the conscious self is in control. At this point, you need to address my actual argument.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Bullshit. That's been your entire point; no free will. You have no control over your thoughts and that you have no choice but to act on those thoughts.

Get your story straight, son.
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Correct but, depending on outside influences that structure your brain, your thoughts may result in you NOT acting on an impulse. Or, you may act on one impulse, but not another. We all have an alarm go off to wake us up for work. Some days, you hit the snooze button once. Other days, maybe twice. Some days you reset your alarm for 30 minutes later. Some days you just get up. You have no visibility to the neurological processes that give you control one day and not the other.

But, if you could rewind time to one specific day, where you hit snooze once, you would hit snooze every single time, for as long as you could rewind time to that exact state of your brain, the universe, etc.
 
BidenPresident said:
I never said free will means the conscious self is in control. At this point, you need to address my actual argument.
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I'm not sure what your argument is. We both seem to agree that there is no self, but you still believe that there is some thing that makes decisions which give you free will.
 
Cypress said:
I always suspected the premise that there is no such thing as free will or choice was concocted by a school of philosophers who wanted to be edgy and controversial. That's one way of attracting attention to your academic career.
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Agreed it's one way to go against the flow.

Most "free will" arguments are religious based. Note that most anti-free will arguments are atheistic in nature. That we are just meat robots not worth any more than the sum of our parts. That "when you're dead, you're dead".

I believe there is a logical, natural argument for free will. At least in part. Sure, we are party the sum of our experiences, we do some things without thinking. We have limited control over our thoughts and dreams. Still, what separates us from the animals is our conscience...at least some of us. Others, not so much. LOL
 
ZenMode said:
I'm not sure what your argument is. We both seem to agree that there is no self, but you still believe that there is some thing that makes decisions which give you free will.
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No. I said we make decisions and carry them out. You keep asserting it entails an autonomous abstract self.

I don't have the free will to jump off a cliff and fly. So free will does not mean anything I imagine is possible to do.
 
ZenMode said:
Correct but, depending on outside influences that structure your brain, your thoughts may result in you NOT acting on an impulse. Or, you may act on one impulse, but not another. We all have an alarm go off to wake us up for work. Some days, you hit the snooze button once. Other days, maybe twice. Some days you reset your alarm for 30 minutes later. Some days you just get up. You have no visibility to the neurological processes that give you control one day and not the other.

But, if you could rewind time to one specific day, where you hit snooze once, you would hit snooze every single time, for as long as you could rewind time to that exact state of your brain, the universe, etc.
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Again, this is why I think you are either under 40 or your screws aren't tightened to factory specs.

Oversleeping is a choice. Your choice to skip class, be late for work or blow off a meeting with friends in preference for sleeping. Immature or defective minds seek to avoid responsibility by blaming other people or other factors for their bad choices.
 
BidenPresident said:
No. I said we make decisions and carry them out. You keep asserting it entails an autonomous abstract self.

I don't have the free will to jump off a cliff and fly. So free will does not mean anything I imagine is possible to do.
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Who is "we" that is making decisions?
 
BidenPresident said:
I just read your post and responded. That is me. No one else typed this, I am the author.
No one forced me to write this.
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Yes, "you" did. But what is the "you" you're referring to? Is you your arms and hands? Are "you" your arms and hands? Was it your bones? Skin? Are you your skin or is you inside your skin?
 
Doc Dutch said:
Again, this is why I think you are either under 40 or your screws aren't tightened to factory specs.

Oversleeping is a choice. Your choice to skip class, be late for work or blow off a meeting with friends in preference for sleeping. Immature or defective minds seek to avoid responsibility by blaming other people or other factors for their bad choices.
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I agree that choices are made. I agree that some minds, arguably immature, tend to make different than what we'd call a mature mind. I've never argued that "you", i.e. your body, isn't making decisions and choices.

What I have said is that we believe there is a self that creates, moderates, filters, etc our thoughts to make decisions.

There is no self that exists outside of our stream of consciousness that is creating, moderating, etc our thoughts. That being the case, there is no basis for a belief in free will .
 
ZenMode said:
I agree that choices are made. I agree that some minds, arguably immature, tend to make different than what we'd call a mature mind. I've never argued that "you", i.e. your body, isn't making decisions and choices.

What I have said is that we believe there is a self that creates, moderates, filters, etc our thoughts to make decisions.

There is no self that exists outside of our stream of consciousness that is creating, moderating, etc our thoughts. That being the case, there is no basis for a belief in free will .
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Non sequitur, kid.

Our "stream of consciousness" is us, our individual selves, and that self can make choices for itself. You can choose to try to seduce the boss's wife, rob a liquor store or leap off a bridge. If seen by someone else, they can choose to try to stop you, but that has nothing to do with your own choices. Your own free will.
 
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