Scientism

[Dutch Uncle]

To be honest, random, unplanned, unexpected thoughts popping into one's mind and telling one what to do sounds more like a mental illness.

I'm intrigued by the idea of the Bicameral mind and schizophrenia since they would both be alike; compelling voices or "thoughts" in one's head that can't be controlled.

https://www.julianjaynes.org/about/about-jaynes-theory/overview/
Jaynes’s theory can be broken down into four independent hypotheses:

1. Consciousness — as he carefully defines it — is a learned process based on metaphorical language. Misunderstandings about Jaynes’s theory usually stem from not understanding Jaynes’s more precise definition of consciousness.
2. That preceding the development of consciousness there was a different mentality based on verbal hallucinations called the bicameral (‘two-chambered’) mind.
3. Dating the development of consciousness (as Jaynes carefully defines it) to around the end of the second millennium B.C.E. in Greece and Mesopotamia. The transition occurred at different times in other parts of the world.
4. The neurological model for the bicameral mind, which has now been confirmed by dozens of brain imaging studies.

 

[BidenPresident]

Summary: every decision you make is the result of your thoughts, but you don't control, in any way, your thoughts.

If I don't control my thoughts then what does?

 

[Cypress]

I'm intrigued by the idea of the Bicameral mind and schizophrenia since they would both be alike; compelling voices or "thoughts" in one's head that can't be controlled.

https://www.julianjaynes.org/about/about-jaynes-theory/overview/
Jaynes’s theory can be broken down into four independent hypotheses:

1. Consciousness — as he carefully defines it — is a learned process based on metaphorical language. Misunderstandings about Jaynes’s theory usually stem from not understanding Jaynes’s more precise definition of consciousness.
2. That preceding the development of consciousness there was a different mentality based on verbal hallucinations called the bicameral (‘two-chambered’) mind.
3. Dating the development of consciousness (as Jaynes carefully defines it) to around the end of the second millennium B.C.E. in Greece and Mesopotamia. The transition occurred at different times in other parts of the world.
4. The neurological model for the bicameral mind, which has now been confirmed by dozens of brain imaging studies.

My psychology knowledge is very weak, so I will defer to you!!

 

[Dutch Uncle]

My psychology knowledge is very weak, so I will defer to you!!

Thanks but that's just theory at the moment...although the link matches brain neurology with the theory.

 

[ZenMode]

Maybe my brain is just different than yours.

I guess it's possible, but incredibly unlikely.

I feel like a lot of my thinking is deliberate, controlled, focused. Not all of it, but a lot of it.

And that feeling is very common. We all feel like we are the conscious authors/creators of our thoughts. The reality is that we have no idea what we're going to think next, whether it be the random thought that pops into your head, out of nowhere, while watching a football game - "Did I close the garage door" or if I were to ask you to "Think of a movie" and you have no clue why some movies come to mind while others don't. We still all feel like we are the true , conscious creators of our thoughts.

I don't do a lot of sitting around, day dreaming and vegging out, and waiting for random and unexpected thoughts to pop into my head.

You don't have to. We are constantly "talking" to ourselves. We are constantly having to fight away off thoughts when we DO want to focus on something.

Go ahead, try to stop thinking for 60 seconds and see what happens!

 

[ZenMode]

If I don't control my thoughts then what does?

The neurological processes in your brain create your thoughts and push them into your consciousness. This happens whether you want it to or not and you have no control or visibility to what your next thought is going to be until it appears in consciousness.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The neurological processes in your brain create your thoughts and push them into your consciousness. This happens whether you want it to or not and you have no control or visibility to what your next thought is going to be.

Correct. When in the consciousness, sane people decide what to do about the thought. Mentally ill people can't. An OCD person can't control their thoughts. Neither can a paranoid schizophrenic, a bipolar or any other mentally ill person depending upon the severity of their illness.

Have you been diagnosed with mental issues, Mode?

 

[Cypress]

I guess it's possible, but incredibly unlikely. And that feeling is very common. We all feel like we are the conscious authors/creators of our thoughts. The reality is that we have no idea what we're going to think next, whether it be the random thought that pops into your head, out of nowhere, while watching a football game - "Did I close the garage door" or if I were to ask you to "Think of a movie" and you have no clue why some movies come to mind while others don't. We still all feel like we are the true , conscious creators of our thoughts.
You don't have to. We are constantly "talking" to ourselves. We are constantly having to fight away off thoughts when we DO want to focus on something.

Go ahead, try to stop thinking for 60 seconds and see what happens!

I generally don't believe in arbitrarily inventing new definitions for words, especially when they contradict established dictionary definitions.

Thoughts are not will. The noun 'will' is defined as deliberate and directed action.

 

[ZenMode]

Correct. When in the consciousness, sane people decide what to do about the thought. Mentally ill people can't. An OCD person can't control their thoughts. Neither can a paranoid schizophrenic, a bipolar or any other mentally ill person depending upon the severity of their illness.

Have you been diagnosed with mental issues, Mode?

The process of deciding whether or not to act on a thoughts done via subsequent thoughts. You have no more control over the subsequent thoughts than you did the original.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The process of deciding whether or not to act on a thoughts done via subsequent thoughts. You have no more control over the subsequent thoughts than you did the original.

For the mentally ill, I agree. For normal people, they decide for themselves.

Are you bipolar, Mode?

 

[ZenMode]

I generally don't believe in arbitrarily inventing new definitions for words, especially when they contradict established dictionary definitions.

Thoughts are not will. The noun 'will' is defined as deliberate and directed action.

I guess I'd agree that thoughts are not will, but every deliberate action you take is the result of thought. "I'm thirsty. Crap, my drink is empty. I'll get another one. Ugh, I really don't want to get up now. The next play is about to start. I guess I'll wait. Maybe there will be a commercial soon. Screw it. I'm just going to run to the kitchen and grab a drink while they're huddling."

You didn't author any of those thoughts. They came to you, from your brain, completely outside of your control. You have no conscious control of, or visibility to, the neurological processes that creates them, yet the determined whether you act or not.

 

[Cypress]

I guess I'd agree that thoughts are not will, but every deliberate action you take is the result of thought. "I'm thirsty. Crap, my drink is empty. I'll get another one. Ugh, I really don't want to get up now. The next play is about to start. I guess I'll wait. Maybe there will be a commercial soon. Screw it. I'm just going to run to the kitchen and grab a drink while they're huddling."

You didn't author any of those thoughts. They came to you, from your brain, completely outside of your control. You have no conscious control of, or visibility to, the neurological processes that creates them, yet the determined whether you act or not.

Again you speak to thoughts when will by definition is deliberate and purposeful action.

I don't think I choose my wife, I choose the careers I have had, the experiences I have consciously sought out.

 

[ZenMode]

Again you speak to thoughts when will by definition is deliberate and purposeful action.

I don't think I choose my wife, I choose the careers I have had, the experiences I have consciously sought out.

There is a clear connection between thoughts and deliberate actions. Any deliberate action requires you to have a thought to cause that action. In my example above, about getting a drink, the decision for action/inaction is all determined by thoughts that you didn't consciously create, but only appeared in your consciousness. The thought "I'm thirsty" wasn't consciously created by you.

"You" didn't consciously choose your career or your experiences you've sought out. You consciously experience thoughts related to your career and experiences, but those thoughts are created by your brain, completely outside of your control, based on the totality of your life experiences.

 

[Cypress]

There is a clear connection between thoughts and deliberate actions. Any deliberate action requires you to have a thought to cause that action. In my example above, about getting a drink, the decision for action/inaction is all determined by thoughts that you didn't consciously create, but only appeared in your consciousness. The thought "I'm thirsty" wasn't consciously created by you.

"You" didn't consciously choose your career or your experiences you've sought out. You consciously experience thoughts related to your career and experiences, but those thoughts are created by your brain, completely outside of your control, based on the totality of your life experiences.

What we're all doing is practicing the worst forms of scientism. We are making declarative statements which sound scientific, and invoke the authority of science, but are not actually epistemologically supported by any legitimate scientific theory or law.

Conciousness is one of the final frontiers in science and philosophy. It's basically still a mystery, and we really don't know how neuron cells result in
conscious thought and contemplation.

I feel like I have free will, and that's probably all that matters to the human experience. Everything else is mental masturbation

 

[BidenPresident]

The neurological processes in your brain create your thoughts and push them into your consciousness. This happens whether you want it to or not and you have no control or visibility to what your next thought is going to be until it appears in consciousness.

What controls the neurological processes?

 

[ZenMode]

What controls the neurological processes?

Specifically? I don't know, but it seems safe to say that the brain is in control, just as the brain is in control of monitoring/executing other bodily functions. Clearly, neither you, I or anyone else has to consciously think about executing brain functions. We couldn't if we wanted to.

 

[BidenPresident]

Specifically? I don't know, but it seems safe to say that the brain is in control, just as the brain is in control of monitoring/executing other bodily functions. Clearly, neither you, I or anyone else has to consciously think about executing brain functions. We couldn't if we wanted to.

How do you know that? How do you know your brain is controlling your entire life?

 

[ZenMode]

How do you know that? How do you know your brain is controlling your entire life?

Two reasons: First, there is no "self" in our body/brain that exists outside of our stream of consciousness. There is no self that is the "thinker" of thoughts. There is no self that feels feelings, experiences experience,etc. The self/I is equal to the stream of consciousness.

Second, the unique stream of consciousness, that we associate with an imagine is the "I", is not consciously under our control. Our thoughts just arise in consciousness. We cannot stop them and we do not know what they are going to be until they enter our consciousness.

Those two things being the case, combined with the reality that our thoughts literally dictate our every deliberate decision, there's no explanation that makes sense other than the brain being in control....

I mean, technically speaking, this could be a brain in a vat situation and there's some being/power feeding thoughts into our brains, but that seems unlikely, also.

One more piece of evidence for our lack of free will....

Have you ever not known something and then, after reading, watching or talking to someone, a lightbulb came on and you felt like you really understood something. Whether it was early in life when the basics of summing two numbers, like 2+2=4, clicks for you or some concept you're studying in college or at your job suddenly becomes clear in your mind. Those are examples of external influences that I've mentioned earlier, as those that impact the structure of your brain and impact future thoughts. At the point that you truly understand something, do you have the free will to not understand it?

What if you had an opinion/belief about something, but a conversation with someone, or you read something that completely changes your mind. Are you able to use your free will to not be convinced? Are you able to not have your mind changed if it truly was changed?

A lack of free will is why we can't help but have our minds changed when someone presents a good, logical, rational argument. It's why we can't help but understand something that we truly understand.

 

[BidenPresident]

Two reasons: First, there is no "self" in our body/brain that exists outside of our stream of consciousness. There is no self that is the "thinker" of thoughts. There is no self that feels feelings, experiences experience,etc. The self/I is equal to the stream of consciousness.

But you make the brain the self.

 

[ZenMode]

But you make the brain the self.

I'm not. We feel like there is a separate self that sits somewhere behind our eyes. Like we're riding around in our body. A self, outside of our consciousness, that feels feelings, experiences experience and authors thoughts. A self that sits outside of our stream of consciousness, like sitting on the bank of a river, watching our thoughts go by.

That feeling, the feeling of a separate self, is what creates the illusion of free will. We imagine that there is a some kind of self that is "running" things. In reality, there is no self that "does" anything. There's no self that is experiencing experiences or feeling feelings or thinking/creating thoghts. There is only our unique stream of consciousness and we/I/self are that a stream, not sitting outside of it.