Scientism

ZenMode said:
Nothing has changed. We have no control over what thoughts are pushed into our consciousness by our brain. They just appear and that's the case for every thought, including those thoughts that appear in consciousness as part of decision making. Are you able to think your thoughts before you think them or do they just show up? Is there s self that sits outside of the neurological process that is able to preview or moderate your thoughts?

Are you free to understand something you don't understand?

Are you free to NOT understand something that you DO understand. Can you free-will yourself into not understanding that 2+2 = 4?

Are you free to want something that you don't want?

If I ask you to list 50 movies, are you free to list the name of a movie that you've seen, but didn't come to mind when making that list?
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Agreed on thoughts. That's our subconscious. It's your forebrain that is the seat of free will. How many times have I posted this to you, Mode?

Why do you think not being able to fully control your subconscious negates Free Will?
 
Doc Dutch said:
Agreed on thoughts. That's our subconscious. It's your forebrain that is the seat of free will. How many times have I posted this to you, Mode?

Why do you think not being able to fully control your subconscious negates Free Will?
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Your thoughts, the ones that we're aware of, are all in your conscious mind. They are created by your brain and pushed into your conscious mind. However, as I've said a few times, we have no control over what thoughts are pushed into our conscious mind. There is no self that is creating them. They just appear in consciousness, completely outside of our control. This fact is easy to experience if you just pay attention to how thoughts appear in consciousness. They just suddenly appear. You aren't "creating" them. You also can't stop them from appearing in consciousness. You have no idea what you next thought is going to be until it appears in consciousness.

You can't think your thoughts before you think them.
 
ZenMode said:
Your thoughts, the ones that we're aware of, are all in your conscious mind.

They are created by your brain and pushed into your conscious mind.


However, as I've said a few times, we have no control over what thoughts are pushed into our conscious mind. There is no self that is creating them. They just appear in consciousness, completely outside of our control. This fact is easy to experience if you just pay attention to how thoughts appear in consciousness. They just suddenly appear. You aren't "creating" them. You also can't stop them from appearing in consciousness. You have no idea what you next thought is going to be until it appears in consciousness.

You can't think your thoughts before you think them.
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The two bolded statements conflict with each other, Mode. Are the thoughts in your conscious mind or are they pushed into it?

Your subconscious is you, Mode, whether you like it or not. It's not a ghost or God speaking to you. It's just you.
 
Doc Dutch said:
The two bolded statements conflict with each other, Mode. Are the thoughts in your conscious mind or are they pushed into it?

Your subconscious is you, Mode, whether you like it or not. It's not a ghost or God speaking to you. It's just you.
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Both are true. Your brain does a lot of things that you're not aware of. When your brain pushes thoughts into your conscious mind, obviously you're aware of them. If your brain didn't push a thought into your conscious mind, you'd have no awareness of it.
 
ZenMode said:
Both are true. Your brain does a lot of things that you're not aware of. When your brain pushes thoughts into your conscious mind, obviously you're aware of them. If your brain didn't push a thought into your conscious mind, you'd have no awareness of it.
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That's not will; random thoughts bubbling up from the subconscious is not will.:


Will (noun):

1) the faculty of conscious and deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over one's actions:

2) power in choosing one's own actions.


https://www.dictionary.com/browse/will
 
ZenMode said:
Both are true. Your brain does a lot of things that you're not aware of. When your brain pushes thoughts into your conscious mind, obviously you're aware of them. If your brain didn't push a thought into your conscious mind, you'd have no awareness of it.
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Awesome. How old are you? Under 40?
 
BidenPresident said:
Please post your definition. I must have missed it. Thanks.
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My general definition of free will involves two aspects. One is the belief that, in any given situation, we could have decided differently than we did. I chose pepperoni pizza, but could have chosen sausage, for example. The second is that we believe that we are the conscious authors of our thoughts. We are consciously creating them.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Mode's will is set to believe he has no control over his mind.
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As far as I can tell, thoughts churning in your mind aren't will.

According to the dictionary definition, will is the mental faculty to choose which deliberate action one takes.
 
ZenMode said:
My general definition of free will involves two aspects. One is the belief that, in any given situation, we could have decided differently than we did. I chose pepperoni pizza, but could have chosen sausage, for example. The second is that we believe that we are the conscious authors of our thoughts. We are consciously creating them.
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Good, we have something to work with.

"in any given situation, we could have decided differently" This means coerced behavior cannot be a free action. Also, there has to be more than one possible action.
 
Cypress said:
That's not will; random thoughts bubbling up from the subconscious is not will.:


Will (noun):

1) the faculty of conscious and deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over one's actions:

2) power in choosing one's own actions.


https://www.dictionary.com/browse/will
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I agree that thoughts bubbling up from our subconscious is not will. However, every deliberate action we make is determined by our thoughts - you're sitting on your couch, watching a football game and out of nowhere comes the thought "I'm thirsty". You didn't create that thought, the thought just appeared in your consciousness and you had no ability to prevent it from appearing in consciousness. Every subsequent thought that determines whether you act or don't act, like the initial thought, appears in consciousness beyond your control.

If you don't control your thoughts, yet your thoughts determine your every deliberate action, you can't have free will.
 
BidenPresident said:
Good, we have something to work with.

"in any given situation, we could have decided differently" This means coerced behavior cannot be a free action. Also, there has to be more than one possible action.
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To a point, if free will existed, there could be restrictions. You aren't free to order a pizza from McDonald's.

If I simply ask you to think of a movie, you're really only limited in that you can't pick a movie you've never heard of.
 
ZenMode said:
we believe that we are the conscious authors of our thoughts. We are consciously creating them.
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We have not defined "thought" yet, so let us discuss "author." If someone writes something, we say that person is the author. Even someone who says God is the author of the Bible must admit a human wrote the words as efficient cause (means by which something happens).

Conscious authors means they know they are doing it. I know I am writing this sentence therefore I am a conscious author. Therefore, I am consciously "creating" (making them.

By "thought" I mean anything with a content or meaning. Here it does not matter whether it occurs in my mind or written in text on this forum. A written thought and mental thought both have content.
 
Cypress said:
As far as I can tell, thoughts churning in your mind aren't will.

According to the dictionary definition, will is the mental faculty to choose which deliberate action one takes.
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Agreed. While the subconscious mind generates those thoughts just like our dreams, it's the conscious mind the decides what to do with them or what they mean.

As a side note, this is why "dream interpretation" books are bullshit. The meaning of thoughts or dreams is interpreted by the person who generated them. This is why shrinks are always asking people "what does that mean to you?" Shrinks are mainly guides who help patients resolve things in their minds such as daddy or mommy issues. LOL
 
ZenMode said:
The second is that we believe that we are the conscious authors of our thoughts. We are consciously creating them.
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This is the difficult part.
We may believe that a thought we have has a specific meaning that is consciously known. This is the fallacy. We can have conscious thought of the actual words but that does not mean we consciously know all its meanings.
 
BidenPresident said:
Agree.
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Ok. So, let's say I asked you to think of movie. Let's say you actually did it....I assume that you won't.

At the point that you start thinking, names of movies will start appearing in your consciousness. (Titanic....Half Baked.....Tombstone......Spiderman... On and on for 20 or more movies titles).

So, you spend a minute thinking "Well, I just saw Titanic last night, so I don't want to pick that. My son mentioned seeing the new Spiderman, but I REALLY like Tombstone, so I'll pick that one".

This would appear to be a very free choice, right? As we agreed, you're only limited by movies you've heard of.

Here's the question...were you free to pick a movie title that your brain didn't push into your consciousness? For example, surely you've heard of Grease, but the name didn't occur to you. Do you have free will to pick it?
 
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