Scientism

BidenPresident said:
I have no idea what you mean by free will.
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Meaning that you could have, if you were able to rewind time, decided differently in a given situation. You chose vanilla, but could have chosen chocolate ice cream. You bought the 70" TV, but could have bought the 65".
 
ZenMode said:
Meaning that you could have, if you were able to rewind time, decided differently in a given situation. You chose vanilla, but could have chosen chocolate ice cream. You bought the 70" TV, but could have bought the 65".
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I suppose you are referencing something from science--and some scientists still adhere to this 17th century idea.
It has been replaced by the idea of calculation, which led to the design of artificial intelligence.
 
BidenPresident said:
I suppose you are referencing something from science--and some scientists still adhere to this 17th century idea.
It has been replaced by the idea of calculation, which led to the design of artificial intelligence.
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Nope. Free will is the belief that we actually had a choice in any given situation.

In reality, we had no choice because the decision making process is completely outside of our control for reasons described previously.
 
ZenMode said:
Meaning that you could have, if you were able to rewind time, decided differently in a given situation. You chose vanilla, but could have chosen chocolate ice cream. You bought the 70" TV, but could have bought the 65".
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This is from Alan Turing's article, Computing Machinery and Intelligence. "The view that machines cannot give rise to surprises is due to a fallacy: as soon as a fact is presented to a mind all consequences of that fact spring into the mind simultaneously with it."

Turing is saying that the difference between computers and the human mind is wrongly conceived. The human mind is a calculating machine.
 
ZenMode said:
Nope. Free will is the belief that we actually had a choice in any given situation.

In reality, we had no choice because the decision making process is completely outside of our control for reasons described previously.
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That explains nothing. Since your idea of no free is perfectly compatible with free will.
 
BidenPresident said:
This is from Alan Turing's article, Computing Machinery and Intelligence. "The view that machines cannot give rise to surprises is due to a fallacy: as soon as a fact is presented to a mind all consequences of that fact spring into the mind simultaneously with it."

Turing is saying that the difference between computers and the human mind is wrongly conceived. The human mind is a calculating machine.
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Ok. I've never read it, but I don't doubt what you're saying.
 
ZenMode said:
Ok. I've never read it, but I don't doubt what you're saying.
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At first it seems Turing is saying the mind is just like a machine, as some scientists did in the 17th century.
But he is saying that the idea of a machine was misconceived. Machines (computers) really do think. The misunderstanding was how the human mind works.
The human mind is creative because machines can be creative.
 
ZenMode said:
I don't believe there is really anything else that can shape us beyond genes and experience, but I guess there could be.
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What does that have to do with Free Will?

Yes, genes and experience help make us who we are. You say that makes us meat robots. I disagree.
 
ZenMode said:
I don't believe there is really anything else that can shape us beyond genes and experience, but I guess there could be.
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How does that prove we don't have Free Will? Independence of thought? The ability to choose?
 
Doc Dutch said:
How does that prove we don't have Free Will? Independence of thought? The ability to choose?
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"That" doesn't. What proves we don't have free will is simply how our brain functions as it relates to creating thoughts in consciousness, combined with the fact that there is no separate self.

Our thoughts determine everything we do, but we have no control over our thoughts. Our thoughts are created by our brain, a process that we have no control over. There is no self that creates or moderates our thoughts. Thoughts just appear in our consciousness. We can't stop them and we have no idea what they're going to be until the appear in consciousness. It's those same thoughts, over which we have no control, that determine everything we do. So, if we can't control our thoughts and those thoughts determine everything we do, how can we have free will? Where in that process is freedom of will?
 
ZenMode said:
"That" doesn't. What proves we don't have free will is simply how our brain functions as it relates to creating thoughts in consciousness, combined with the fact that there is no separate self.

Our thoughts determine everything we do, but we have no control over our thoughts. Our thoughts are created by our brain, a process that we have no control over. There is no self that creates or moderates our thoughts. Thoughts just appear in our consciousness. We can't stop them and we have no idea what they're going to be until the appear in consciousness. It's those same thoughts, over which we have no control, that determine everything we do. So, if we can't control our thoughts and those thoughts determine everything we do, how can we have free will? Where in that process is freedom of will?
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Sorry, dude, but your theory isn't proof. You have a serious disconnect between understanding the difference between a thought and the choice (free will) to implement those thoughts.

You believe you don't have a choice and that you are compelled to act on every thought such as rape a women or kill your boss. I disagree. I say a normal, sane adult has a choice. They have the free will to choose.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Sorry, dude, but your theory isn't proof. You have a serious disconnect between understanding the difference between a thought and the choice (free will) to implement those thoughts.

You believe you don't have a choice and that you are compelled to act on every thought such as rape a women or kill your boss. I disagree. I say a normal, sane adult has a choice. They have the free will to choose.
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To clarify, I don't think we're compelled to act on every thought. A thought I have to speed on my way to work, when I'm running late, is often followed by a subsequent series of thoughts, which generally includes imagining myself paying over $200 for a speeding ticket, which deters me from speeding. But, like the initial thought where I pondered speeding, none of the subsequent thoughts were within my control. In fact, if it were possible to remove an awareness of legal consequences from my memory, my brain, an therefore my thoughts, would be unable to consider them in my decision. Legal consequences, in that case, wouldn't have been an external influence and couldn't be taken into consideration when my brain is generating thoughts.
 
ZenMode said:
To clarify, I don't think we're compelled to act on every thought. A thought I have to speed on my way to work, when I'm running late, is often followed by a subsequent series of thoughts, which generally includes imagining myself paying over $200 for a speeding ticket, which deters me from speeding. But, like the initial thought where I pondered speeding, none of the subsequent thoughts were within my control. In fact, if it were possible to remove an awareness of legal consequences from my memory, my brain, an therefore my thoughts, would be unable to consider them in my decision. Legal consequences, in that case, wouldn't have been an external influence and couldn't be taken into consideration when my brain is generating thoughts.
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You said we have no free will to decide. Which is it now, Mode?
 
Doc Dutch said:
You said we have no free will to decide. Which is it now, Mode?
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Nothing has changed. We have no control over what thoughts are pushed into our consciousness by our brain. They just appear and that's the case for every thought, including those thoughts that appear in consciousness as part of decision making. Are you able to think your thoughts before you think them or do they just show up? Is there s self that sits outside of the neurological process that is able to preview or moderate your thoughts?

Are you free to understand something you don't understand?

Are you free to NOT understand something that you DO understand. Can you free-will yourself into not understanding that 2+2 = 4?

Are you free to want something that you don't want?

If I ask you to list 50 movies, are you free to list the name of a movie that you've seen, but didn't come to mind when making that list?
 
ZenMode said:
Nothing has changed. We have no control over what thoughts are pushed into our consciousness by our brain. They just appear and that's the case for every thought, including those thoughts that appear in consciousness as part of decision making. Are you able to think your thoughts before you think them or do they just show up? Is there s self that sits outside of the neurological process that is able to preview or moderate your thoughts?

Are you free to understand something you don't understand?

Are you free to NOT understand something that you DO understand. Can you free-will yourself into not understanding that 2+2 = 4?

Are you free to want something that you don't want?

If I ask you to list 50 movies, are you free to list the name of a movie that you've seen, but didn't come to mind when making that list?
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I think you have no idea what "free will" means.
 
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