Scientism

ZenMode said:
Of course. Our thoughts are absolutely determined by our experiences. A person with no awareness of the law and consequences couldn't be deterred from crime by the the fear of going to jail.

But, again, that's secondary to what I'm saying...

Do you know what you're going to think next? Do you have a way to stop your next thought from appearing in consciousness?
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People with psychological issues often feel they have no control over their own minds. Normal people know they have a choice.

Example: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/pub...ive-disorder-when-unwanted-thoughts-take-over
What is OCD?
OCD is a common, long-lasting disorder characterized by uncontrollable, recurring thoughts (obsessions) that can lead people to engage in repetitive behaviors (compulsions)...

...Can't control their obsessive thoughts or compulsive behaviors, even when they recognize those thoughts or behaviors as excessive


https://www.takingcharge.csh.umn.edu/what-are-thoughts-emotions
While thoughts are shaped by life experiences, genetics, and education, they are generally under conscious control. In other words, if you are aware of your thoughts and attitudes, you can choose to change them.
 
ZenMode said:
So, you are able to think your thoughts before you think them and you are able to stop a thought that you haven't thought yet?
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Silly question since the whole point of Free Will is to have the thoughts then decide what to do about them. OCD and other mentally ill people are compelled to act on their thoughts.
 
Doc Dutch said:
People with psychological issues often feel they have no control over their own minds. Normal people know they have a choice.

Example: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/pub...ive-disorder-when-unwanted-thoughts-take-over
What is OCD?
OCD is a common, long-lasting disorder characterized by uncontrollable, recurring thoughts (obsessions) that can lead people to engage in repetitive behaviors (compulsions)...

...Can't control their obsessive thoughts or compulsive behaviors, even when they recognize those thoughts or behaviors as excessive


https://www.takingcharge.csh.umn.edu/what-are-thoughts-emotions
While thoughts are shaped by life experiences, genetics, and education, they are generally under conscious control. In other words, if you are aware of your thoughts and attitudes, you can choose to change them.
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This isn't related to psychological issues. It's a basic and easily observable reality of how our mind and thoughts work.

Our minds can absolutely be changed and are changed every day.
 
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ZenMode said:
This isn't related to psychological issues. It's a basic and easily observable, reality of how our mind and thoughts work.

Our minds can absolutely be changed and are changed every day.
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Disagreed, Mode. Psychology is the study of the mind.

Agreed our minds can be changed, but you keep saying we can't do it ourselves because we lack Free Will. That's the point where we disagree.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Disagreed, Mode. Psychology is the study of the mind.

Agreed our minds can be changed, but you keep saying we can't do it ourselves because we lack Free Will. That's the point where we disagree.
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We can change our own minds. I, at some point, became interested how our brains function, specifically in regard to how thoughts "work". I don't remember what exactly it was that first introduced free will/thoughts to me, but I had no control over the level of interest I had in it before or after the event that increased my interest to the point that I spent time reading, watching and listening to information. In other words I'm not free to be any more or less interested than I am. For example, I currently have no interest in rock collecting. If I read something tomorrow that completely changed my interest level, and I started spending my weekends collecting and learning about rocks, I had no control over than change in interest any more than I have a choice in understanding that 2+2=4.
 
ZenMode said:
We can change our own minds. I, at some point, became interested how our brains function, specifically in regard to how thoughts "work". I don't remember what exactly it was that first introduced free will/thoughts to me, but I had no control over the level of interest I had in it before or after the event that increased my interest to the point that I spent time reading, watching and listening to information. In other words I'm not free to be any more or less interested than I am. For example, I currently have no interest in rock collecting. If I read something tomorrow that completely changed my interest level, and I started spending my weekends collecting and learning about rocks, I had no control over than change in interest any more than I have a choice in understanding that 2+2=4.
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If your wife, husband, boyfriend cheated on you repeatedly and told you they couldn't help it because they have no Free will or choice, then you would totally accept their claim and hold them blameless?
 
Cypress said:
If your wife, husband, boyfriend cheated on you repeatedly and told you they couldn't help it because they have no Free will or choice, then you would totally accept their claim and hold them blameless?
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Regardless of free will, our intentional actions are still a reflection of who we are. In your example, my wife IS a cheater. She doesn't have control over it, but she still IS and I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who I can't trust.

An awareness of her lack of a true choice really just takes away some of the hatred I would otherwise feel if I felt like she had a choice.
 
ZenMode said:
Regardless of free will, our intentional actions are still a reflection of who we are. In your example, my wife IS a cheater. She doesn't have control over it, but she still IS and I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who I can't trust.

An awareness of her lack of a true choice really just takes away some of the hatred I would otherwise feel if I felt like she had a choice.
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Sorry, I don't believe for a second if someone deliberately poisoned your dog, slashed your tires, and vandalized your house you would hold them blameless and unaccountable because they didn't have free will or any choice.
 
ZenMode said:
Regardless of free will, our intentional actions are still a reflection of who we are. In your example, my wife IS a cheater. She doesn't have control over it, but she still IS and I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who I can't trust.

An awareness of her lack of a true choice really just takes away some of the hatred I would otherwise feel if I felt like she had a choice.
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Having no control is a mental condition, an illness. In that case, a sex addiction. Agreed you shouldn't trust her unless she sincerely seeks help. Even then, it's your choice how far to trust her.
 
Cypress said:
Sorry, I don't believe for a second if someone deliberately poisoned your dog, slashed your tires, and vandalized your house you would hold them blameless and unaccountable because they didn't have free will or any choice.
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Accountable? Absolutely. Regardless of how you ended up a criminal/murderer/arsonist, if you are, you are and there are legal consequences.

Legal consequences are one of the external influences that shape our mind, influence our thoughts and end up deterring crime.
 
ZenMode said:
Accountable? Absolutely. Regardless of how you ended up a criminal/murderer/arsonist, if you are, you are and there are legal consequences.

Legal consequences are one of the external influences that shape our mind, influence our thoughts and end up deterring crime.
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Only for the mentally ill. Normal people "do the right thing" without fear of the law.
 
ZenMode said:
To a point yes, but how else would you explain what you are saying you are able to do?
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I set a task and fulfill it. I may desire a beer but decide to do chores like cleaning floors and doing laundry. I decide to do those chores and have a beer after. Two hours later I finish my chores and have a beer. At that time, I am fulfilling a plan I made hours before. Has nothing to do with the psychology of attention.
 
ZenMode said:
Kind of beside the point, but

do you consider not wearing a seatbelt to be immoral in and of itself?
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Disagreed, but I understand why you want to not discuss free will in pursuit of your belief that you are a meat robot responding to biochemical programming.

No, I consider it stupid. Immoral would be allowing others in the car, especially minors, to not wear seatbelts.
 
ZenMode said:
Accountable? Absolutely. Regardless of how you ended up a criminal/murderer/arsonist, if you are, you are and there are legal consequences.

Legal consequences are one of the external influences that shape our mind, influence our thoughts and end up deterring crime.
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But when it comes to property damage, it's up to you to press charges. If someone smashed your car windows, slashed your tires, and spray painted your house I am assuming you wouldn't press charges and would hold the perpetrators blameless because they had no choice in their actions
 
Cypress said:
But when it comes to property damage, it's up to you to press charges. If someone smashed your car windows, slashed your tires, and spray painted your house I am assuming you wouldn't press charges and would hold the perpetrators blameless because they had no choice in their actions
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Wrong is still wrong. Illegal is still illegal. The fact that they may have had no true choice in what they did does not mean that they shouldn't be held legally and financially responsible. People accidentally/unintentionally damage property or even kill people. There is still accountability even if you didn't intend to do what you did.
 
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ZenMode said:
Wrong is still wrong. Illegal is still illegal. The fact that they may have had no true choice in what they did does not mean that they shouldn't be held legally and financially responsible. People accidentally damage property or even kill people. There is still accountability even if you didn't intend to do what you did.
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There you go again, either conflating facts or covering them up. There's a big difference between accident and on purpose, Mode, even if you are correct that you are a meat robot responding to your programming.
 
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