Scientism

Doc Dutch said:
Disagreed, but I understand why you want to not discuss free will in pursuit of your belief that you are a meat robot responding to biochemical programming.

No, I consider it stupid. Immoral would be allowing others in the car, especially minors, to not wear seatbelts.
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The law isn't always about right and wrong. That really has no implications as it pertains to free will or lack thereof.
 
ZenMode said:
The law isn't always about right and wrong. That really has no implications as it pertains to free will or lack thereof.
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Waffle all you want, Mode. Are you a professional dancer? LOL

Agreed the law isn't always about right and wrong but that's often the way it works. Free will comes in because sane, normal people follow the law. Stupid and/or mentally defective people, not so much. Meat robots never because they can't resist their impulses to rape women, rob liquor stores and take drugs.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Waffle all you want, Mode. Are you a professional dancer? LOL

Agreed the law isn't always about right and wrong but that's often the way it works. Free will comes in because sane, normal people follow the law. Stupid and/or mentally defective people, not so much. Meat robots never because they can't resist their impulses to rape women, rob liquor stores and take drugs.
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Lol...ok. I guess you can speak for everyone!
 
Doc Dutch said:
Like you do with your meat robot schtick, Mode? LOL

No, I don't speak for everyone, but I can speak from my education, experience and reasoning mind.
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I'm not speaking for anyone. I'm pointing out realities about our thoughts that anyone can experience directly.
 
ZenMode said:
Wrong is still wrong. Illegal is still illegal. The fact that they may have had no true choice in what they did does not mean that they shouldn't be held legally and financially responsible. People accidentally/unintentionally damage property or even kill people. There is still accountability even if you didn't intend to do what you did.
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I don't believe Joseph Stalin did not intend to send millions of people to the gulag.

If you believe people can recognize wrong from write, then they have a choice on what action to take.
 
Cypress said:
I don't believe Joseph Stalin did not intend to send millions of people to the gulag.

If you believe people can recognize wrong from write, then they have a choice on what action to take.
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Joseph Stalin DID intend to do everything he did. Same with Hitler. Whatever was going on in either of their brains, it resulted in the doing what they did and they had no choice in the matter. The same is true of the kid who grew up with a parent who beat him and who one day snapped and killed the parent. Or, less disturbingly, the person who picked chocolate rather than vanilla ice cream. Whatever was going on in the universe, their mind, etc if you could rewind time and put time back to that exact point, they would pick chocolate again and again and again until the end of time. And they would pick chocolate again and again because the neurological workings of their brain, that generates thoughts and counter-thoughts that produced the choice of chocolate would happen exactly the same way every single time.

We have no way of knowing why in one situation we're very inspired and are able to put great effort into something, other times we are just lazy and unmotivated, or the times when we're lazy but then suddenly become inspired to put forth great effort. It's all happening at a level of our brain that we are completely blind to, but still controls our every intentional actions.
 
BidenPresident said:
What is the consequence of believing there is no free will? How would one act differently from believing in free will?
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The area that has changed the most is dealing with my kids. All parents know that their kids often take on the personality or the traits of their parents, but when you realize that everything around them, including parents, friends, TV, social media is all impacting them in a manner that they can't control, it takes away the anger parents feel when their kids misbehave. there's a lot more talking, teaching and reasoning and much, much less accusing, lecturing and judging. That doesn't mean there aren't consequences. My son and his friend snuck out of our house a couple weeks ago to walk up to a nearby gas station to get drinks. We talked to him and talked about The dangers, the potential legal consequences, etc and there was a consequence. He lost his phone and computer for a week and is not permitted to have friends sleepover for the rest of the summer. We also explain to him what the consequence would be if he did it again.
 
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ZenMode said:
Joseph Stalin DID intend to do everything he did. Same with Hitler. Whatever was going on in either of their brains, it resulted in the doing what they did and they had no choice in the matter. The same is true of the kid who grew up with a parent who beat him and who one day snapped and killed the parent. Or, less disturbingly, the person who picked chocolate rather than vanilla ice cream. Whatever was going on in the universe, their mind, etc if you could rewind time and put time back to that exact point, they would pick chocolate again and again and again until the end of time. And they would pick chocolate again and again because the neurological workings of their brain, that generates thoughts and counter-thoughts that produced the choice of chocolate would happen exactly the same way every single time.

We have no way of knowing why in one situation we're very inspired and are able to put great effort into something, other times we are just lazy and unmotivated, or the times when we're lazy but then suddenly become inspired to put forth great effort. It's all happening at a level of our brain that we are completely blind to, but still controls our every intentional actions.
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The only people who don't have choice are the mentally ill, Mode. The kid was disturbed to the point of committing murder.

You keep trying to defend violent mentally ill people as being sane, Mode. Why?
 
Doc Dutch said:
The only people who don't have choice are the mentally ill, Mode. The kid was disturbed to the point of committing murder.

You keep trying to defend violent mentally ill people as being sane, Mode. Why?
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Lol...too early in the morning for straw manning. I'm not defending anything. I've used plenty of examples of things that are completely unviolent - thoughts of being thirsty or thoughts that lead to picking one ice cream flavor over another.

Also said, repeatedly, that a lack of free will does not negate the need for laws and consequences.
 
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ZenMode said:
The area that has changed the most is dealing with my kids. All parents know that their kids often take on the personality or the traits of their parents, but when you realize that everything around them, including parents, friends, TV, social media is all impacting them in a manner that they can't control, it takes away the anger parents feel when their kids misbehave. there's a lot more talking, teaching and reasoning and much, much less accusing, lecturing and judging. That doesn't mean there aren't consequences. My son and his friend snuck out of our house a couple weeks ago to walk up to a nearby gas station to get drinks. We talked to him and talked about The dangers, the potential legal consequences, etc and there was a consequence. He lost his phone and computer for a week and is not permitted to have friends sleepover for the rest of the summer. We also explain to him what the consequence would be if he did it again.
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According to you, that won't matter. He's a malfunctioning meat robot proven to be a lying juvenile delinquent.

He's simply responding to defective genes and biochemical programming. Might as well start fitting him for an orange jumpsuit, a straitjacket or a coffin because, according to you, there's nothing you can do to change him. He has no choice.
 
ZenMode said:
The area that has changed the most is dealing with my kids. All parents know that their kids often take on the personality or the traits of their parents, but when you realize that everything around them, including parents, friends, TV, social media is all impacting them in a manner that they can't control, it takes away the anger parents feel when their kids misbehave. there's a lot more talking, teaching and reasoning and much, much less accusing, lecturing and judging. That doesn't mean there aren't consequences. My son and his friend snuck out of our house a couple weeks ago to walk up to a nearby gas station to get drinks. We talked to him and talked about The dangers, the potential legal consequences, etc and there was a consequence. He lost his phone and computer for a week and is not permitted to have friends sleepover for the rest of the summer. We also explain to him what the consequence would be if he did it again.
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What does that have to do with free will?
 
Doc Dutch said:
According to you, that won't matter. He's a malfunctioning meat robot proven to be a lying juvenile delinquent.

He's simply responding to defective genes and biochemical programming. Might as well start fitting him for an orange jumpsuit, a straitjacket or a coffin because, according to you, there's nothing you can do to change him. He has no choice.
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Why wouldn't it matter? What I have been saying the entire time is that our thoughts, which determine our intentional actions, are the results of our genetics and outside influences. Me talking to my son would be an example of an external influence that will, and some respect, have an impact on the neurological structuring of his brain and will change his future decisions to some degree. It may not change them enough that he won't sneak out again. If that's the case, then that's the case. We also told him that if he decides do it again, his consequences will be doubled. Knowledge of that will also have an impact on him and may also contribute to his decision to not sneak out again.
 
ZenMode said:
Lol...too early in the morning for straw manning. I'm not defending anything. I've used plenty of examples of things that are completely unviolent - thoughts of being thirsty or thoughts that lead to picking one ice cream flavor over another.

Also said, repeatedly, that a lack of free will does not negate the need for laws and consequences.
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You're free to backpedal on your claims people don't have a choice. By your own words, your son is a loser condemned to end up a criminal based upon his genetics and programming.

Agreed, lock the kid up now. He's a proven criminal and must be treated as such.

ZenMode said:
I believe, as I've said a few times, that our thoughts determine nearly every action we take, but we have no ability to prevent a thought from coming to mind, so free will is impossible.
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ZenMode said:
A mixture of genes and everything you've experienced in life. If you had Jeffrey Dahmer's genes, and the entirety of his life experiences, you'd be him and do all of the terrible things he did.
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ZenMode said:
I don't believe there is really anything else that can shape us beyond genes and experience, but I guess there could be.
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ZenMode said:
Our thoughts determine everything we do, but we have no control over our thoughts.
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Your son is toast....according to you. According to me, he has free will or, if he has mental issues, then you can choose to get him help.
 
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