Scientism

ZenMode said:
How would my son reason, when presented with the opportunity to sneak out, to decide what action he's going to take? What does the process of reasoning look like.
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First, understand that, by adult standards, all children are insane. <--- psychology joke with truth in it. Kids brains are like bramble bushes. Lots going on in there. An adult mind is like a tree. The key is to prune/shape the bramble bush into a healthy tree.

Second, although you never stated his age, I'm guessing he's 16-17, which can be a rebellious age. The fledgling who wants to leave the nest. Most ancient societies have a distinct ritual for when a boy becomes a man, usually age 13. American culture often lacks this ritual so kids create their own "coming of age" rituals such as sneaking out for a beer or watching porn. Among Jews, this is noted by a bar mitzvah. It's also noted in the Christian Bible in 1 Corinthians 13:11.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/coming-of-age-rite
coming-of-age rite

IMO, the solution is to treat your son like a man; give him a choice, but it needs to be a fair and shaped choice. His sneaking out for a beer with a friend is an "adventure". Give him an adventure that is more positive in nature. It helps if it's slightly scary or dangerous but still controlled. Go carts rental/racing, water skiing, dirt bikes, camping, zip lines, paintball games, hang glider lessons, etc. Most cost money, but a reasoning mind can research and identify the best choices for themselves. Best if it's an environment where other men are not drinking, smoking or providing bad examples of manhood. Letting him see how good men act provides leadership by example. Most boys don't want to become peaceful preachers, especially those who are already proved to be risk takers.

https://www.liveabout.com/fathers-can-help-boys-become-men-1270867
How Fathers Can Help Boys Become Men
Tips On How to Raise a Boy to Be a Good Man
 
Cypress said:
A war of all against all - Thomas Hobbes

I was amazed by the TP wars!
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Agreed; it was an interesting social phenomenon.

The same thing happened when Obama was pushing a gun ban in 2013; people began panic buying of guns and ammo which created a shortage.

IMO, a lot of the favoritism shown by American voters for Trump is related to this phenomenon; it's fear-based. Fear of the future. Republicans utilize this by ramping up the fear-mongering; fear of foreigners, fear of government, fear of "libruls", fear of "woke", etc, etc, etc. It's all fear-based.

So why are they afraid? Poor education, about half of them aren't very bright to begin with, confusion from mixed-messages by government leaders and two increasingly authoritarian* political parties to name a few examples.


*Authoritarian: "We know what's best for you and will use the full weight of government to shove it down your throats".
 
ZenMode said:
Free will doesn't exist. Once you understand that peoples' decisions and subsequent actions are out of their control, your feelings about those actions change. Free will can't exist. It can't exist because it doesn't map onto physical reality. This is something we Bahama discussing but never finished (page 34):

ZenMode: Do you know what your next thought is going to be and do you have a way to stop it from entering your consciousness?

BidenPresident: Yes

ZenMode: So, you are able to think your thoughts before you think them and you are able to stop a thought that you haven't thought yet?

BidenPresident: Obviously that makes no sense semantically.

ZenMode: To a point yes, but how else would you explain what you are saying you are able to do?

To my knowledge, you never explained what it is that you are able to do. I don't know if you gave it thought, didn't see my post or just forgot to respond, but once you realize, through your subjective experience, that you no more know what you're going to think than you know what I'm going to type next, then you'll realize that free will is physically impossible. At some point today you will think something like "I'm hungry", but that thought will come out of nowhere. You will have no ability to think it before you think it. You will have no ability to pick that thought before it picks itself, yet that thought, along with subsequent thoughts that you didn't pick will determine your actions.
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You said all this before. I think we are done.
 
Doc Dutch said:
First, understand that, by adult standards, all children are insane. <--- psychology joke with truth in it. Kids brains are like bramble bushes. Lots going on in there. An adult mind is like a tree. The key is to prune/shape the bramble bush into a healthy tree.

Second, although you never stated his age, I'm guessing he's 16-17, which can be a rebellious age. The fledgling who wants to leave the nest. Most ancient societies have a distinct ritual for when a boy becomes a man, usually age 13. American culture often lacks this ritual so kids create their own "coming of age" rituals such as sneaking out for a beer or watching porn. Among Jews, this is noted by a bar mitzvah. It's also noted in the Christian Bible in 1 Corinthians 13:11.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/coming-of-age-rite
coming-of-age rite

IMO, the solution is to treat your son like a man; give him a choice, but it needs to be a fair and shaped choice. His sneaking out for a beer with a friend is an "adventure". Give him an adventure that is more positive in nature. It helps if it's slightly scary or dangerous but still controlled. Go carts rental/racing, water skiing, dirt bikes, camping, zip lines, paintball games, hang glider lessons, etc. Most cost money, but a reasoning mind can research and identify the best choices for themselves. Best if it's an environment where other men are not drinking, smoking or providing bad examples of manhood. Letting him see how good men act provides leadership by example. Most boys don't want to become peaceful preachers, especially those who are already proved to be risk takers.

https://www.liveabout.com/fathers-can-help-boys-become-men-1270867
How Fathers Can Help Boys Become Men
Tips On How to Raise a Boy to Be a Good Man
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Ok but, from his point of view... his subjective experience of being himself, how does he go about "reasoning"? Or, when you try to decide whether or not to do something, even if completely benign and legal, what is your process for reasoning and deciding?
 
BidenPresident said:
You said all this before. I think we are done.
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I've said it before and you declined to explain twice twice.

ZenMode: Do you know what your next thought is going to be and do you have a way to stop it from entering your consciousness?

BidenPresident: Yes

ZenMode: So, you are able to think your thoughts before you think them and you are able to stop a thought that you haven't thought yet?

BidenPresident: Obviously that makes no sense semantically.

ZenMode: To a point yes, but how else would you explain what you are saying you are able to do?
 
ZenMode said:
Ok but, from his point of view... his subjective experience of being himself, how does he go about "reasoning"? Or, when you try to decide whether or not to do something, even if completely benign and legal, what is your process for reasoning and deciding?
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It's innate. Part of being human.

The fact you can't do it yourself is a problem, Mode. Perhaps the best help you can provide your son is to get help yourself.
 
BidenPresident said:
I have explained it in detail with references. This is just repetition.
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The only response I saw was this, but it doesn't answer the question of how you knowing what your next thought is going to be before you think it and whether or not you can stop thoughts from showing up in your consciousnes.

I set a task and fulfill it. I may desire a beer but decide to do chores like cleaning floors and doing laundry. I decide to do those chores and have a beer after. Two hours later I finish my chores and have a beer. At that time, I am fulfilling a plan I made hours before. Has nothing to do with the psychology of attention.
 
ZenMode said:
The only response I saw was this, but it doesn't answer the question:

I set a task and fulfill it. I may desire a beer but decide to do chores like cleaning floors and doing laundry. I decide to do those chores and have a beer after. Two hours later I finish my chores and have a beer. At that time, I am fulfilling a plan I made hours before. Has nothing to do with the psychology of attention.
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Yes, you are referring to the psychology of attention. I stated this has nothing to do with whether there is free will.
 
Doc Dutch said:
It's innate. Part of being human.

The fact you can't do it yourself is a problem, Mode. Perhaps the best help you can provide your son is to get help yourself.
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I understand it may be innate. I'm asking for what you do, from your subjective point of view, when you are trying to reason and decide something.
 
ZenMode said:
I understand it may be innate. I'm asking for what you do, from your subjective point of view, when you are trying to reason and decide something.
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Mode, this discussion has been going on for over a week now. The fact you keep derailing off the topic of "free will', the reasoning choice normal adult humans make in their lives every day, in favor of "It's not my fault" should be clear to all.

By your same beliefs, your son will continue to sneak out and break the law unless you punish him or lock him up at night. Why? Because according to you he is only responding to his genetics and uncontrollable thoughts.

All that said, once again, based upon the consequences of error, I consider the situation, consider all known factors then make a choice that best fits my goals. Consider running a yellow light. Not much time there to study the situation. The consequence is a ticket if it turns red before entering the intersection.

OTOH, if I know the light and have a sense of the time settings, depending upon whether or not I'm in a hurry and/or my current speed, I may choose to run it or stop. You can lecture me all you like and even double the fine, but it's still my choice.
 
BidenPresident said:
I said the sentence, "think thoughts before you think them" is semantically meaningless.
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I get that. That's why I asked you to explain what you meant. I'll try to better explain what I'm saying:

I set a task and fulfill it. I may desire a beer but decide to do chores like cleaning floors and doing laundry. I decide to do those chores and have a beer after. Two hours later I finish my chores and have a beer. At that time, I am fulfilling a plan I made hours before. Has nothing to do with the psychology of attention.

So, you're sitting on the couch and you think "A beer sounds good, but I have chores to do". That thought came out of nowhere, did it not. You had no idea that you were going to think "A beer sounds good" until the thought entered your consciousness. I, at some point today, will think "I'm thirsty" or something similar, but I have no idea when that thought is going to happen. It just will and I will be powerless to stop myself from having that thought.

Do we agree so far?
 
BidenPresident said:
No, I do not agree. I like stout beer and when I buy it I intend to drink it. Nothing mysterious. Comes from my intention.
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Even if you buy it, and it's in your refrigerator, you aren't just constantly think "I want beer, I want I want beer, I want beer, I want beer, I want beer, I want beer, beer..." all day. There comes a point in your day where you will have that thought. I could be on your way home, in the middle of work or when you enter your house, but at some point the thought "I want a beer" happens.
 
ZenMode said:
Even if you buy it, and it's in your refrigerator, you aren't just constantly think "I want beer, I want I want beer, I want beer, I want beer, I want beer, I want beer, beer..." all day. There comes a point in your day where you will have that thought. I could be on your way home, in the middle of work or when you enter your house, but at some point the thought "I want a beer" happens.
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I guess I am just a more disciplined thinker. When I decide to have a beer after I finish my chores there is nothing mysterious about actually drinking the beer, it was my intention.
 
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