Scientism

BidenPresident said:
Attention is the way the mind focuses on something. Deliberately thinking something.

"Attention is involved in the selective directedness of our mental lives." https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/attention/
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The inclination/motivation to apply focus, and your capacity to do so in any given situation, is also the result of thought because we don't apply the same level of attention to every situation equally.

If your last thoughts was "I had a crappy day, I'm going to drink earlier than normal", that's going to determine your actions and, indirectly, your attention level to completing chores before drinking.
 
ZenMode said:
The inclination/motivation to apply focus, and your capacity to do so in any given situation, is also the result of thought because we don't apply the same level of attention to every situation equally.

If your last thoughts was "I had a crappy day, I'm going to drink earlier than normal", that's going to determine your actions and, indirectly, your attention level to completing chores before drinking.
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I see. Someone who does not drink beer would not be thinking about having a beer. And beer drinkers who do not like stout do not think about having a stout beer. Thoughts are not arbitrary.
 
BidenPresident said:
Many things we do are by habit. Like walking or driving. We do not need a lot of conscious attention.
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It agree that it means something to say that what you did is "in character" for you and if you did something out of character, it would likely be noticed. That goes back to the mixture of genetics and external influences/causes that have shaped your mind, and therefore your behavior, over time. But, even the most basic intentional action requires some level of thought and decision.
 
BidenPresident said:
I see. Someone who does not drink beer would not be thinking about having a beer. And beer drinkers who do not like stout do not think about having a stout beer. Thoughts are not arbitrary.
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Even more basic... if you, the person completely dedicated to finishing chores before drinking, had the thought about having a beer WHILE doing chores and, in the subsequent string of thoughts (none of which you had visibility to before they entered your consciousness and couldn't stop yourself from thinking) the final thought was "I've had a crappy day. I'm going to get a beer now. I've earned it!" Then that last thought, though outside the norm, would still determine your action.

I know I keep beating this drum but you did not pick that last thought. It picked itself and you had no power to stop it.... yet it determined your action of drinking a beer during chores.
 
ZenMode said:
It agree that it means something to say that what you did is "in character" for you and if you did something out of character, it would likely be noticed. That goes back to the mixture of genetics and external influences/causes that have shaped your mind, and therefore your behavior, over time. But, even the most basic intentional action requires some level of thought and decision.
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Yes. A while ago I did research on stouts. I learned how to brew them and consciously learned to appreciate them. So, "I'll have a stout," is not an arbitrary thought. I know what it tastes like and cultivated my interest.

Whereas, "I am thirsty," is more general and the thought could occur to anyone.
 
ZenMode said:
Even more basic... if you, the person completely dedicated to finishing chores before drinking, had the thought about having a beer WHILE doing chores and, in the subsequent string of thoughts (none of which you had visibility to before they entered your consciousness and couldn't stop yourself from thinking) was "I've had a crappy day. I'm going to get a beer now. I've earned it!" Then that last thought, though outside the norm, would still determine your action.

I know I keep beating this drum but you did not pick that last thought. It picked itself and you had no power to stop it.... yet it determined your action of drinking a beer during chores.
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The exact time the thought occurred may be arbitrary. But the desire for stout preexists the occurrence of the exact thought.
 
BidenPresident said:
The exact time the thought occurred may be arbitrary. But the desire for stout preexists the occurrence of the exact thought.
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I'm talking about the action of drinking DURING chores, not after. That decision/action was based on a thought that you didn't consciously bring into existence, you didn't know what it was going to be until it entered your consciousness and you could not stop it from entering your consciousness.
 
BidenPresident said:
Yes. A while ago I did research on stouts. I learned how to brew them and consciously learned to appreciate them. So, "I'll have a stout," is not an arbitrary thought. I know what it tastes like and cultivated my interest.

Whereas, "I am thirsty," is more general and the thought could occur to anyone.
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I'll get back to this... :)
 
ZenMode said:
I'm talking about the action of drinking DURING chores, not after. That decision/action was based on a thought that you didn't consciously bring into existence, you didn't know what it was going to be until it entered your consciousness and you could not stop it from entering your consciousness.
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I agree with that. You seem to ascribe arbitrariness to the content of the thought.
 
Cypress said:
I wonder why it is that where you have functioning law enforcement, police, effective laws and courts crime tends to be reasonably low, but when law enforcement and functioning civil society breaks down you tend to get utter chaos, rampant rape, unrestrained crime. You get Haiti, Syria, the Balkans.

It's almost like when you present people with consequences for their actions, they usually make a mental risk calculation on whether to act on their worst impulses.

It's like they are making a choice.
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It could be a choice, yes, but it could be a reaction just as easily.
Flip a coin as far as I can tell.
 
BidenPresident said:
I agree with that. You seem to ascribe arbitrariness to the content of the thought.
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If I did, it wasn't intentional. Our thoughts are still generally "in character".

As you alluded to earlier, a person who's never heard of beer wouldn't have the external causes/influences that structured the neurological functionality of their brain to even consider it. A person who doesn't speak Portuguese wouldn't have thoughts in Portuguese.

Do you see the difficulty in finding free will based on the reality of how our minds/thoughts work? Given that reality, there really isn't a way that free will could be possible. We'd have to have some ability to directly control the inner workings of our brain to generate only the thoughts we wanted to enter our consciousness and stop the others from entering our consciousness. In other words, think them before we think them.
 
ZenMode said:
ability to directly control the inner workings of our brain to generate only the thoughts we wanted to enter our consciousness
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No, that is not my idea of free will.

Free will does not mean we control all our thoughts. That's like, absolute will.

Free will means if I think of going to the grocery store and I go there, nothing obstructed my desire. It does not matter what the psychology of consciousness is. Free will is what I choose to act on. It is not based in the way thought occurs.
 
BidenPresident said:
No, that is not my idea of free will.

Free will does not mean we control all our thoughts. That's like, absolute will.

Free will means if I think of going to the grocery store and I go there, nothing obstructed my desire. It does not matter what the psychology of consciousness is. Free will is what I choose to act on. It is not based in the way thought occurs.
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That's fine if you describe free will that way. I don't think most people agree. I think most people believe they are the author/creator of our thoughts and, therefore, their conscious self is in the driver's seat as it relates to our choices and actions.
 
ZenMode said:
That's fine if you describe free will that way. I don't think most people agree. I think most people believe they are the author/creator of our thoughts and, therefore, their conscious self is in the driver's seat as it relates to our choices and actions.
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Not really what scientists and philosophers mean by free will. Does not have to be conscious. Just a desired action.
 
ZenMode said:
That's fine if you describe free will that way. I don't think most people agree. I think most people believe they are the author/creator of our thoughts and, therefore, their conscious self is in the driver's seat as it relates to our choices and actions.
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"free will has traditionally been conceived of as a kind of power to control one’s choices and actions."

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/#NatuFreeWill
 
BidenPresident said:
"free will has traditionally been conceived of as a kind of power to control one’s choices and actions."

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/#NatuFreeWill
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If you can't control the thoughts that directly determine the choices , you still see it as free will? If in any situation you're in, where you believe "you" are making actually have choices and are making a choice, but you actually had no choice, that's still free will?
 
ZenMode said:
If you can't control the thoughts that directly determine the choices , you still see it as free will? If in any situation you're in where you believe "you" are making a choice, but you actually had no choice, that's still free will?
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I never agreed that you cannot control the thoughts.
 
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