Scientism

ZenMode said:
Given the fact that your thoughts just appear in consciousness, you can't consciously create the and you can't stop them from entering consciousness, where do you have control?
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This is from an excellent book tracing the origin of the concept of free will from ancient greeks and romans to the modern time.

"The hypothesis that I would like to suggest here is that the passage from the ancient world to modernity coincides with the
passage from potential to will, from the predominance of the modal verb “I can” to that of the modal verb “I will” (and later, “I
must”). Ancient human beings were people who “can,” who conceive their thought and their action in the dimension of potential;
Christian human beings are beings that will."
https://anarch.cc/uploads/giorgio-agamben/karman.pdf

What I mean by free will has nothing to do with a place in the mind called the will, or even the self.
Free will just means that I choose to do something rather than something else.
Thus, I choose whether to have a stout beer or not. Nothing to do with the psychology of consciousness.
 
For Plato and Aristotle, the question was why would you want the freedom to do something harmful to yourself? So action is caused by the desire for some good.
 
BidenPresident said:
My thoughts do not just appear. I am very deliberate.
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Those two things are not mutually exclusive. I have no doubt that you are a deliberate person, but that does not change the reality of how thoughts are formed and make their way into our conscious mind. I trust a modern understanding of brain functionality over the thoughts of ancient Greeks.

At this point, for the sake of not starting from scratch and going for another 20 pages, we can agree to disagree.
 
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ZenMode said:
Those two things are not mutually exclusive. I have no doubt that you are a deliberate person, but that does not change the reality of how thoughts are formed and make their way into our conscious mind. I trust a modern understanding of brain functionality over the thoughts of ancient Greeks.

At this point, for the sake of not starting from scratch and going for another 20 pages, we can agree to disagree.
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So now you understand why your son will continue to sneak out and break the law.
 
BidenPresident said:
Yes. A while ago I did research on stouts. I learned how to brew them and consciously learned to appreciate them. So, "I'll have a stout," is not an arbitrary thought. I know what it tastes like and cultivated my interest.

Whereas, "I am thirsty," is more general and the thought could occur to anyone.
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This is one thing that I mentioned I wanted to get back to since it does relate to free will also.

I've enjoyed beer for decades. When we travel I'm always looking for a new local beer to try. I look forward to seasonal beers particularly winter beers. I converted a chest freezer into a kegerator. It sits in our pantry, but the faucets are run through a wall into our kitchen. Unlike you I never really had any interest in brewing my own beer. I've looked into it, but it just never interested me enough to put in the time needed to get the process going.


My interest in things can only be what it is. I can't want to brew my own beer any more or less than I currently do. But, let's say you and I talked about brewing beer, you opened my eyes to some aspects that I wasn't aware of and suddenly I couldn't wait to start brewing my own beer. I immediately start researching what equipment is needed, what ingredients/chemicals are needed. I'm searching on Amazon to see what I can get delivered overnight or even today! In other words you, as an external influence, caused a complete transformation in my views of home brewing. I went from have no interest to HIGH interest.

Before our conversation, was I free to want what I didn't want? Could I use my free will to want it more?

After our conversation, was I free to NOT want what I did in fact want very much? Could I use my free will to want it less?
 
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ZenMode said:
This is one thing that I mentioned I wanted to get back to since it does relate to free will also.

I've enjoyed beer for decades. When we travel I'm always looking for a new local beer to try. I look forward to seasonal beers particularly winter beers. I converted a chest freezer into a kegerator. It sits in our pantry, but the faucets are run through a wall into our kitchen. Unlike you I never really had any interest in brewing my own beer. I've looked into it, but it just never interested me enough to put in the time needed to get the process going.


My interest in things can only be what it is. I can't want to brew my own beer any more or less than I currently do. But, let's say you and I talked about brewing beer, you opened my eyes to some aspects that I wasn't aware of and suddenly I couldn't wait to start brewing my own beer. I immediately start researching what equipment is needed, what ingredients/chemicals are needed. I'm searching on Amazon to see what I can get delivered overnight or even today! In other words you, as an external influence, caused a complete transformation in my views of home brewing. I went from have no interest to HIGH interest.

Before our conversation, was I free to want what I didn't want?

After our conversation, was I free to NOT want what I did in fact want very much?
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Is it really a mystery where your son gets his genes?
 
Doc Dutch said:
Is it really a mystery where your son gets his genes?
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No. It would be impossible for him to not have my and my wife's genes, unless I wasn't the father.

giphy.gif
 
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ZenMode said:
This is one thing that I mentioned I wanted to get back to since it does relate to free will also.

I've enjoyed beer for decades. When we travel I'm always looking for a new local beer to try. I look forward to seasonal beers particularly winter beers. I converted a chest freezer into a kegerator. It sits in our pantry, but the faucets are run through a wall into our kitchen. Unlike you I never really had any interest in brewing my own beer. I've looked into it, but it just never interested me enough to put in the time needed to get the process going.


My interest in things can only be what it is. I can't want to brew my own beer any more or less than I currently do. But, let's say you and I talked about brewing beer, you opened my eyes to some aspects that I wasn't aware of and suddenly I couldn't wait to start brewing my own beer. I immediately start researching what equipment is needed, what ingredients/chemicals are needed. I'm searching on Amazon to see what I can get delivered overnight or even today! In other words you, as an external influence, caused a complete transformation in my views of home brewing. I went from have no interest to HIGH interest.

Before our conversation, was I free to want what I didn't want?

After our conversation, was I free to NOT want what I did in fact want very much?
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I find the concept of "free" as you use it to be meaningless. Free and not-free mean the same thing. Why I said it is metaphysics. No way to prove our actions are not free.
 
ZenMode said:
As long as we ignore the fact that my son drinking is your brain-child, because I never said that, then sure?
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I am now doubting your ability to reason, Mode, since you are the "brain-child" about your son's drinking.

ZenMode said:
The area that has changed the most is dealing with my kids. All parents know that their kids often take on the personality or the traits of their parents, but when you realize that everything around them, including parents, friends, TV, social media is all impacting them in a manner that they can't control, it takes away the anger parents feel when their kids misbehave. there's a lot more talking, teaching and reasoning and much, much less accusing, lecturing and judging. That doesn't mean there aren't consequences. My son and his friend snuck out of our house a couple weeks ago to walk up to a nearby gas station to get drinks. We talked to him and talked about The dangers, the potential legal consequences, etc and there was a consequence. He lost his phone and computer for a week and is not permitted to have friends sleepover for the rest of the summer. We also explain to him what the consequence would be if he did it again.
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Doc Dutch said:
Is it a crime ridden area full of juvenile delinquents? Why would they have a curfew?
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I'm consistently surprised, and confused, by the mental leaps and assumptions you make.

The nuances of curfew laws vary across Arizona cities, but there are some popular guidelines that many cities follow. For example, Avondale, Chandler, Gilbert, Glendale, Goodyear, Mesa, Phoenix, Queen Creek and Scottsdale and Tempe all have very similar laws: If you’re under age 16, you cannot be outside without adult supervision between the hours of 10 p.m. and 5 a.m.; if you’re between ages 16 and 18, you cannot be outside without adult supervision between midnight and 5 a.m. In Surprise, however, minors under age 18 may not be in a city public place between 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. Sunday through Thursday, or between midnight and 5 a.m. on Friday and Saturday.

https://stopandgo1.com/arizona-driv...dale, Chandler,,you cannot be outside without


Traditionally under the jurisdiction of local governments, curfews are commonplace in cities and towns across America, according to the U.S. Conference of Mayors. In a December 1995 survey of 1,000 cities with populations of more than 30,000, the conference found that 70 percent, or 270 of the 387 cities responding, have a curfew ordinance in place. An additional 6 percent, or 23 cities, were considering adopting curfew legislation, according to the survey.50 Cities that have enacted new curfew ordinances or have amended existing curfew legislation since 1994 include Arlington, VA; Austin, TX; Baltimore, MD; Buffalo, NY; Phoenix, AZ; Oklahoma City, OK; and San Jose, CA.51

https://ojjdp.ojp.gov/sites/g/files...waii has enacted statewide curfew legislation.
 
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