Scientism

BidenPresident said:
I guess I am just a more disciplined thinker. When I decide to have a beer after I finish my chores there is nothing mysterious about actually drinking the beer, it was my intention.
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You're focusing on the action. Even if the action doesn't occur until after chores, you may still have a thought about drinking a beer during chores. I often think about drinking beer when I'm doing yard work, but I also don't act on it until after I finish or I'm close to the end.
 
ZenMode said:
You're focusing on the action. Even if the action doesn't occur until after chores, you may still have a thought about drinking a beer during chores. I often think about drinking beer when I'm doing yard work, but I also don't act on it until after I finish or I'm close to the end.
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That is what attention is, what is present to the mind. As I have stated, this has nothing to do with free will.
 
BidenPresident said:
That is what attention is, what is present to the mind. As I have stated, this has nothing to do with free will.
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When you have a thought to drink a beer during chores, what happens that prevents you from acting on it. For me it's generally some form of "Nope, it's too soon. If I start drinking now, it'll only make this all take longer". You may just think "Nope. I'm only going to drink after chores." and then you move on back to work.
 
ZenMode said:
When you have a thought to drink a beer during chores, what happens that prevents you from acting on it. For me it's generally some form of "Nope, it's too soon. If I start drinking now, it'll only make this all take longer". You may just think "Nope. I'm only going to drink after chores." and then you move on back to work.
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Free will. You make a conscious decision. Meat robots just react. Want a beer? They drink a beer. A meat robot kid who wants a beer but their parents say no? They'll find a way because it's in their genetic programming. Their parents can beat them to stop them, but since they have no free will, they can't help themselves.

ZenMode said:
Our thoughts determine everything we do, but we have no control over our thoughts.
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Doc Dutch said:
Free will. You make a conscious decision. Meat robots just react. Want a beer? They drink a beer. A meat robot kid who wants a beer but their parents say no? They'll find a way because it's in their genetic programming. Their parents can beat them to stop them, but since they have no free will, they can't help themselves.




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You can't just say "It's free will" and that magically makes it true. The fact is, when you're trying to make a decision on whether to take action or not, there's a process and that process includes thinking through the situation, right? Weighing pros and cons or possibly legalities, risk/reward, etc.
 
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ZenMode said:
When you have a thought to drink a beer during chores, what happens that prevents you from acting on it. For me it's generally some form of "Nope, it's too soon. If I start drinking now, it'll only make this all take longer". You may just think "Nope. I'm only going to drink after chores." and then you move on back to work.
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Sure. Like I said, I do not see a relation between the psychology of attention and free will. Free will refers to what we do, our actions.
 
BidenPresident said:
Sure. Like I said, I do not see a relation between the psychology of attention and free will. Free will refers to what we do, our actions.
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As committed as you are to not drinking until after chores, what would you do if the usual chores/drinking situation arose and your last thought was "You know what... I never drink until after chores, but I've had a crappy day and want to have a drink now, not later."
 
ZenMode said:
As committed as you are to not drinking until after chores, what would you do if the usual chores/drinking situation arose and your last thought was "You know what... I never drink until after chores, but I've had a crappy day and want to have a drink now, not later."
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Judgments. Not based on random thoughts in my minds.
 
ZenMode said:
You can't just say "It's free will" and that magically makes it true.

The fact is, when you're trying to make a decision on whether to take action or not, there's a process and that process includes thinking through the situation, right? Weighing pros and cons or possibly legalities, risk/reward, etc.
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You mean like you say "free will doesn't exist" and it's magically true? Good luck with your little meat robot. Try not to punish him too hard since he's just reacting to his genetic programming. :thup:

Yes, the process is called "free will". Either your fate is predetermined or you determine it yourself. Which is it, Mode? Which one will you hold your son accountable for when he breaks the law or house rules? Does he have a choice or not?
 
BidenPresident said:
Yes, that is a thought.
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Ok. Is it a thought that you knew would appear in consciousness before it appeared in consciousness? In other words, did you pick that thought before it picked itself?

Did you have any ability to suppress that thought from your consciousness?
 
ZenMode said:
Ok. Is it a thought that you knew would appear in consciousness before it appeared in consciousness? In other words, did you pick that thought before it picked itself?

Did you have any ability to suppress that thought from your consciousness?
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I think you are describing a psychiatric disorder. If what you are saying is true no one could function.
 
BidenPresident said:
I think you are describing a psychiatric disorder. If what you are saying is true no one could function.
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I'm just asking you a couple of fairly simple questions.

Did you know what you were going to think before you thought it?

Were you able to suppress the thought that caused you to behave differently as it relates to chores and beer drinking?
 
ZenMode said:
I'm just asking you a couple of fairly simple questions.

Did you know what you were going to think before you thought it?

Were you able to suppress the thought that caused you to behave differently as it relates to chores and beer drinking?
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I agree with you but I really don't see what point you're making.
 
BidenPresident said:
I agree with you but I really don't see what point you're making.
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My point, again, is that if you can't determine what your next thought is going to be, and you can't stop it from happening, yet it's those thoughts that determine your every voluntary action, how can you have free will?
 
ZenMode said:
My point, again, is that if you can't determine what your next thought is going to be, and you can't stop it from happening, yet it's those thoughts that determine your every voluntary action, how can you have free will?
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You will have to explain the connection between attention and free will. I see none.
 
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