Scientism

[Dutch Uncle]

Why wouldn't it matter? What I have been saying the entire time is that our thoughts, which determine our intentional actions, are the results of our genetics and outside influences. Me talking to my son would be an example of an external influence that will, and some respect, have an impact on the neurological structuring of his brain and will change his future decisions to some degree. It may not change them enough that he won't sneak out again. If that's the case, then that's the case. We also told him that if he decides do it again, his consequences will be doubled. Knowledge of that will also have an impact on him and may also contribute to his decision to not sneak out again.

You can punish your son all you like, but if you believe he has no choice in his actions, then it won't do any good.

Start saving up for a good lawyer. Maybe he'll end up on a minimum security prison instead of a supermax.

Decisions = free will. Something you don't believe in. LOL

 

[ZenMode]

You're free to backpedal on your claims people don't have a choice. By your own words, your son is a loser condemned to end up a criminal based upon his genetics and programming.

Agreed, lock the kid up now. He's a proven criminal and must be treated as such.





Your son is toast....according to you. According to me, he has free will or, if he has mental issues, then you can choose to get him help.

It's very difficult to have a useful conversation with you. It seems like you've already decided what you want to believe and what you want me to be saying and then cherry pick things I've said to support it. It makes you appear as a very disingenuous person. You've done it multiple times by implying that I don't believe people should be punished for t
Crimes they commit.. And you're doing it again in regards to my son.

I have never said that anyone, including my son, reaches a point where they are unchangeable. In fact, as it pertains to my son, I specifically talked about how new experiences, after he snuck out, would impact him:

Me talking to my son would be an example of an external influence that will, in some respect, have an impact on the neurological structuring of his brain and will change his future decisions to some degree. It may not change them enough that he won't sneak out again. If that's the case, then that's the case. We also told him that if he decides do it again, his consequences will be doubled. Knowledge of that will also have an impact on him and may also contribute to his decision to not sneak out again

EDIT: going one step further, the fact that we don't have free will is the reason that our minds can be changed. If you believe something and somebody presents an absolutely convincing arguments to the contrary, and it completely transforms your opinion, you can't use your free will to control your thoughts to nullify that impact. You can't choose to not understand what you do understand.

 

[ZenMode]

Do not understand this, please explain.
You seem to think free will is an abstract reality having nothing to do with actual circumstances.

Free Will does not exist. At every point in your life where you have made a decision, you had real no choice in that decision. Once you understand that about people, it changes the way that you view their actions.

There are stories about people who have had brain tumors. The placement of those brain tumors makes them behave in ways that the otherwise wouldn't. A brain tumor is just another example of an external cause that impacts someone's actions.

 

[BidenPresident]

Free Will does not exist. At every point in your life where you have made a decision, you had real no choice in that decision.

You have never given evidence for this claim. I conclude you have none.

 

[BidenPresident]

The placement of those brain tumors makes them behave in ways that the otherwise wouldn't. A brain tumor is just another example of an external cause that impacts someone's actions.

Someone paralyzed and confined to a wheelchair impacts their actions. Still has nothing to do with free will.

 

[BidenPresident]

Once you understand that about people, it changes the way that you view their actions.

I view actions for what they are and their consequences. I cannot think of any situation where the notion of free will, or lack of free will, affected how I judged the behavior.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

It's very difficult to have a useful conversation with you...

It's been my experience that that all irrational people have a problem with me.

...It seems like you've already decided what you want to believe and what you want me to be saying and then cherry pick things I've said to support it. It makes you appear as a very disingenuous person. You've done it multiple times by implying that I don't believe people should be punished for t
Crimes they commit.. And you're doing it again in regards to my son.

I have never said that anyone, including my son, reaches a point where they are unchangeable. In fact, as it pertains to my son, I specifically talked about how new experiences, after he snuck out, would impact him:

Me talking to my son would be an example of an external influence that will, in some respect, have an impact on the neurological structuring of his brain and will change his future decisions to some degree. It may not change them enough that he won't sneak out again. If that's the case, then that's the case. We also told him that if he decides do it again, his consequences will be doubled. Knowledge of that will also have an impact on him and may also contribute to his decision to not sneak out again

EDIT: going one step further, the fact that we don't have free will is the reason that our minds can be changed. If you believe something and somebody presents an absolutely convincing arguments to the contrary, and it completely transforms your opinion, you can't use your free will to control your thoughts to nullify that impact. You can't choose to not understand what you do understand.

You seem confused, Mode. Irrational.

Our free will is exactly why we can change outside of being forced to do so by outside influences.

North Vietnam proved they can break anyone and make them say anything they want. Did the person really believe them? Some did. Most just tried to survive. Whatever they claimed on NVA radio doesn't mean they believed it.

Mode, do you believe an American male who has been in prison for 10 years or more and had a homosexual experience becomes a homosexual once released? Are they programmed forever or do they have a choice?

 

[ZenMode]

It's been my experience that that all irrational people have a problem with me.

You seem confused, Mode. Irrational.

Our free will is exactly why we can change outside of being forced to do so by outside influences.

North Vietnam proved they can break anyone and make them say anything they want. Did the person really believe them? Some did. Most just tried to survive. Whatever they claimed on NVA radio doesn't mean they believed it.

Mode, do you believe an American male who has been in prison for 10 years or more and had a homosexual experience becomes a homosexual once released? Are they programmed forever or do they have a choice?

I don't think it's a coincidence that you ignored the core topic of myast post.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't think it's a coincidence that you ignored the core topic of myast post.

Mode, this discussion has been going on for days. What "core" do you think I'm missing about your meat robot ideas and the fact you believe people have no choice?

 

[ZenMode]

You can punish your son all you like, but if you believe he has no choice in his actions, then it won't do any good.

Start saving up for a good lawyer. Maybe he'll end up on a minimum security prison instead of a supermax.

Decisions = free will. Something you don't believe in. LOL

You don't think that an awareness of consequences has an impact on people?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You don't think that an awareness of consequences has an impact on people?

I absolutely believe it does, at least on normal people, because they have Free Will to choose.

You want to believe people are like lab rats in a 1950s behavioral psych experiment where they can be conditioned through food pellets and electric shocks to do was you want. While humans do have an animal side* that reacts to such conditioning, normal, sane humans have a reasoning mind that can see past it. This is why "brainwashing" rarely works outside of a controlled environment.

As far as operant conditioning on people goes, punishment produces the fastest results, but also the shortest lasting. Both negative and positive reinforcement last longer, with positive reinforcement the most enduring, but both take more time to condition. The reason? People have a reasoning mind and can think past the conditioning. In short, they have "free will" to choose. This varies with intelligence.

Where does your son fall on an IQ test? A personality test like this?: https://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?173937-How-your-personality-relates-to-others

*consider the aversion therapy for quitting smoking in the 1980s. https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/aversion-therapy


https://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?190269-Online-Personality-Fantasy-or-Reality

 

[ZenMode]

Do not understand this, please explain.
You seem to think free will is an abstract reality having nothing to do with actual circumstances.

Free will doesn't exist. Once you understand that peoples' decisions and subsequent actions are out of their control, your feelings about those actions change. Free will can't exist. It can't exist because it doesn't map onto physical reality. This is something we Bahama discussing but never finished (page 34):

ZenMode: Do you know what your next thought is going to be and do you have a way to stop it from entering your consciousness?

BidenPresident: Yes

ZenMode: So, you are able to think your thoughts before you think them and you are able to stop a thought that you haven't thought yet?

BidenPresident: Obviously that makes no sense semantically.

ZenMode: To a point yes, but how else would you explain what you are saying you are able to do?

To my knowledge, you never explained what it is that you are able to do. I don't know if you gave it thought, didn't see my post or just forgot to respond, but once you realize, through your subjective experience, that you no more know what you're going to think than you know what I'm going to type next, then you'll realize that free will is physically impossible. At some point today you will think something like "I'm hungry", but that thought will come out of nowhere. You will have no ability to think it before you think it. You will have no ability to pick that thought before it picks itself, yet that thought, along with subsequent thoughts that you didn't pick will determine your actions.

 

[ZenMode]

I absolutely believe it does, at least on normal people, because they have Free Will to choose.

You want to believe people are like lab rats in a 1950s behavioral psych experiment where they can be conditioned through food pellets and electric shocks to do was you want. While humans do have an animal side* that reacts to such conditioning, normal, sane humans have a reasoning mind that can see past it. This is why "brainwashing" rarely works outside of a controlled environment.

As far as operant conditioning on people goes, punishment produces the fastest results, but also the shortest lasting. Both negative and positive reinforcement last longer, with positive reinforcement the most enduring, but both take more time to condition. The reason? People have a reasoning mind and can think past the conditioning. In short, they have "free will" to choose. This varies with intelligence.

Where does your son fall on an IQ test? A personality test like this?: https://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?173937-How-your-personality-relates-to-others

*consider the aversion therapy for quitting smoking in the 1980s. https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/aversion-therapy

Trying to stick onto one area of discussion, so I'm only responding to your first line:

An awareness of consequences has an impact because it changes the micro structure of your brain and, therefore, impacts your thoughts. Whether or not an awareness of consequences actually impacts behavior can't be known until the point in time where a situation arises where one has to make a decision. At that moment where my son has a decision to make, he will have thoughts that determine his decision/actions. Those thoughts will be outside of his control (as discussed in the above post between BidenPresident and I). I hope an awareness of consequences, along with our discussion about the dangers of being out ant night and the potential consequences of violating curfew laws, will impact his decision, but he has no control over it.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

I also suspect that free will might not exist.

If it does, it's a supernatural phenomenon outside of the physical domain
where everything else is in a cause and effect relationship.

Since I've never experienced anything that appeared to be supernatural,
free will would be hard for me to explain.

If we act and react as though free will does exist, however,
we may possibly do so
not of our own free will.

 

[Cypress]

I also suspect that free will might not exist.

If it does, it's a supernatural phenomenon outside of the physical domain
where everything else is in a cause and effect relationship.

Since I've never experienced anything that appeared to be supernatural,
free will would be hard for me to explain.

If we act and react as though free will does exist, however,
we may possibly do so
not of our own free will.

I wonder why it is that where you have functioning law enforcement, police, effective laws and courts crime tends to be reasonably low, but when law enforcement and functioning civil society breaks down you tend to get utter chaos, rampant rape, unrestrained crime. You get Haiti, Syria, the Balkans.

It's almost like when you present people consequences for their actions, they usually make a mental risk calculation on whether to act on their worst impulses.

 

[Cypress]

I also suspect that free will might not exist.

If it does, it's a supernatural phenomenon outside of the physical domain
where everything else is in a cause and effect relationship.

Since I've never experienced anything that appeared to be supernatural,
free will would be hard for me to explain.

If we act and react as though free will does exist, however,
we may possibly do so
not of our own free will.

I wonder why it is that where you have functioning law enforcement, police, effective laws and courts crime tends to be reasonably low, but when law enforcement and functioning civil society breaks down you tend to get utter chaos, rampant rape, unrestrained crime. You get Haiti, Syria, the Balkans.

It's almost like when you present people with consequences for their actions, they usually make a mental risk calculation on whether to act on their worst impulses.

It's like they are making a choice.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Trying to stick onto one area of discussion, so I'm only responding to your first line:

An awareness of consequences has an impact because it changes the micro structure of your brain and, therefore, impacts your thoughts. Whether or not an awareness of consequences actually impacts behavior can't be known until the point in time where a situation arises where one has to make a decision. At that moment where my son has a decision to make, he will have thoughts that determine his decision/actions. Those thoughts will be outside of his control (as discussed in the above post between BidenPresident and I). I hope an awareness of consequences, along with our discussion about the dangers of being out ant night and the potential consequences of violating curfew laws, will impact his decision, but he has no control over it.

If he's reasoning, then his free will determines his actions. If he's as mental as his old man, he'll go with his animal instincts like a meat robot.

If you are correct, stop saving for college and start saving for bail money.

 

[ZenMode]

If he's reasoning, then his free will determines his actions. If he's as mental as his old man, he'll go with his animal instincts like a meat robot.

If you are correct, stop saving for college and start saving for bail money.

How would my son reason, when presented with the opportunity to sneak out, to decide what action he's going to take? What does the process of reasoning look like.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I wonder why it is that where you have functioning law enforcement, police, effective laws and courts crime tends to be reasonably low, but when law enforcement and functioning civil society breaks down you tend to get utter chaos, rampant rape, unrestrained crime. You get Haiti, Syria, the Balkans.

It's almost like when you present people consequences for their actions, they usually make a mental risk calculation on whether to act on their worst impulses.

There's an additional factor; the survival instinct.

Consider the Great Toilet Paper Shortage of Spring 2020 after Trump botched the US COVID Response. Why did people panic to the point of buying grocery cart loads of TP? It obviously wasn't fear of the police. IMO, it was fear of the breakdown of civilized behavior, the social contract. People resorted to a philosophy of "every man for himself" because they no longer trusted their society to maintain order; specifically keeping the supply of TP going. The social contract was broken and people feared for themselves and their families.

While criminals will take advantage of a break down in Law and Order as noted by some during the BLM protests, most people continue to be law abiding without the police except where survival is at stake. Example: If their family is starving, they'll loot a store for food.

 

[Cypress]

There's an additional factor; the survival instinct.

Consider the Great Toilet Paper Shortage of Spring 2020 after Trump botched the US COVID Response. Why did people panic to the point of buying grocery cart loads of TP? It obviously wasn't fear of the police. IMO, it was fear of the breakdown of civilized behavior, the social contract. People resorted to a philosophy of "every man for himself" because they no longer trusted their society to maintain order; specifically keeping the supply of TP going. The social contract was broken and people feared for themselves and their families.

While criminals will take advantage of a break down in Law and Order as noted by some during the BLM protests, most people continue to be law abiding without the police except where survival is at stake. Example: If their family is starving, they'll loot a store for food.

A war of all against all - Thomas Hobbes

I was amazed by the TP wars!