Settling the Biological Virus Debate

Arther Firstenberg, author of "The Invisible Rainbow", provides evidence that that's not the case. From the book:

**
“Anxiety disorder,” afflicting one-sixth of humanity, did not exist before the 1860s, when telegraph wires first encircled the earth. No hint of it appears in the medical literature before 1866.
**

Firstenberg, Arthur. The Invisible Rainbow (p. 2). Chelsea Green Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Another passage further in:
**
It is easy to calculate, using these simple assumptions, that the electric fields beneath the earliest telegraph wires were up to 30,000 times stronger than the natural electric field of the earth at that frequency.
**

Source:
Firstenberg, Arthur. The Invisible Rainbow (p. 53). Chelsea Green Publishing. Kindle Edition.

LOL. And does he also have evidence of unicorns not existing until then as well?

I suspect you chose the metaphor of unicorns because I've used it before myself. I certainly acknowledge that simply because anxiety disorder only came out as a diagnosis in the 1860s doesn't mean that telegraph lines had to be the cause. Nevertheless, it certainly suggests that it may have been the primary cause, or at least one of the causes.

But I am curious what evidence he actually has that anxiety disorder didn't exist before the 1860's. Because something wasn't diagnosed or described in the medical literature is not evidence that it didn't exist. It simply means it wasn't described with those terms.

Agreed, but it's certainly -possible- that it wasn't described in the medical literature because it didn't exist in the past.

Did infection not happen before it was described in the medical literature?

As I already stated, we agree that simply because something was described in the medical literature in the past doesn't mean that it must therefore be a new condition. But then, that could be said for any disease, including Covid. What people should be on the lookout for, then, is not the label of a disease or condition, but whether such symptoms had been seen in the past. I fully acknowledge that some symptoms of Covid do appear to be novel. A New York doctor named Cameron Kyle-Sidell was actually the one who persuaded me of this. An article on his discovery that what was happening with Covid patients was being treated in a harmful fashion due to inexperience with this new condition is here:
https://www.newswars.com/bombshell-...ondition-of-oxygen-deprivation-not-pneumonia/

So we can agree that something new appeared to be on the scene. That doesn't mean that they were right as to its cause, however. As some have pointed out, something that appeared on the scene at around the same time as Covid were 5G installations, and I've found that some of the symptoms associated with Covid are also symptoms that can be generated by 5G. I believe at this point if not from the start that there may be other causes of what is labelled as Covid, but 5G stands out as something that started at around the same time.

I am curious what Firstenberg thinks the word "hysteria" means in the medical literature and if it didn't exist even though it was described in ancient Egypt and ancient Greece.

He doesn't mention hysteria often, but he does bring it up in relation to neuresthenia, which I found interesting. Quoting:

**
A number of historians of medicine who have not dug very deep have asserted that neurasthenia was not a new disease, that nothing had changed, and that late nineteenth and early twentieth century high society was really suffering from some sort of mass hysteria.8
**

Source:
Firstenberg, Arthur. The Invisible Rainbow (p. 54). Chelsea Green Publishing. Kindle Edition.

As to neuresthenia:
**
As far as the new disease that he described in 1869, Beard did not guess its cause. He simply thought it was a disease of modern civilization, caused by stress, that was previously uncommon. The name he gave it, “neurasthenia,” just means “weak nerves.” Although some of its symptoms resembled other diseases, neurasthenia seemed to attack at random and for no reason and no one was expected to die from it. Beard certainly didn’t connect the disease with electricity, which was actually his preferred treatment for neurasthenia—when the patient could tolerate it. When he died in 1883, the cause of neurasthenia, to everyone’s frustration, had still not been identified. But in a large portion of the world where the term “neurasthenia” is still in everyday use among doctors—and the term is used in most of the world outside of the United States—electricity is recognized today as one of its causes. And the electrification of the world was undoubtedly responsible for its appearance out of nowhere during the 1860s, to become a pandemic during the following decades.
**

Source:
Firstenberg, Arthur. The Invisible Rainbow (pp. 51-52). Chelsea Green Publishing. Kindle Edition.
 
You're repeating your links- I understand, as there is a delay in the time that I respond to your posts, but as I mentioned in my previous post, I think we should focus on Iain Davis' article on the Cov 2 virus. Anyway, as mentioned previously, the focus of this thread is for evidence to be presented that biological viruses exist or, failing that, recognizing the possibility if not the probability that biological viruses don't in fact exist.

So you want to simply ignore actual science and concentrate on an opinion piece that contains no science?

You saying that it contains no science doesn't make it so.

I give you a dozen scientific articles from scientific journals that clearly show your opinion pieces don't know the science. Here let me give you them again.

Evidence of the covid virus being isolated and sequenced.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC703e6342/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...98743X20304274
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7366528/
https://link.springer.com/article/10...96-020-03899-4

Repeating the same links over and over again isn't going to persuade me. We need to start discussing the evidence that's -within- linked articles. I've begun to do that when it comes to Iain Davis' article.
 
What actual data and experimentation have you presented to us on this thread? What experiments did Dr Sam Bailey conduct? What data has she collected using the scientific method?

Again, you're deviating from the purpose of this thread, which is to focus on the evidence, or lack thereof, that viruses exist.

Sam Baily has no evidence.

Sam Bailey and the group of doctors that signed off on the statement made in the opening post have never claimed that they have proof that viruses don't exist. Instead, they have devised a scientific methodology wherein scientists could attempt to prove that biological viruses -do- exist. So far, I believe no one has taken them up on their offer. Why do you suppose that is?
 
I think we can all agree that the sun exists.

No. We don't all agree that the sun exists.

https://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=63776.0

've been working on some scientific research, and I'm starting to come to the conclusion that the Sun is merely a reflection of the flat moon

Clearly some don't believe the sun exists and since they don't believe it, shouldn't you have to prove it does exist? That is your argument when it comes to viruses. Should we not apply the same standard to the sun?

First of all, when I said that I think we can all agree that the sun exists, I meant the participants in this thread. As to what we should dedicate our time on, that's up to each of us. I personally think there's more than enough evidence that the sun exists, and I think it's unlikely that I'd spend much time if any trying to persuade someone that it does in fact exist.
 
It matters if they have knowledge on a given subject. In this case, the subject is viruses, and I definitely believe some if not all of the people who signed the statement linked to in the opening post have a significant amount of knowledge on the subject.

Just because you believe something doesn't make it true.

Agreed.

There is more evidence that viruses exist than that the people who signed that statement have any knowledge on the subject.

I disagree.
 
As mentioned in other posts, the focus of this thread is to examine the evidence, or lack thereof, that viruses exist. Also mentioned elsewhere, when it comes to the Cov 2 virus, I believe we should be focusing on Iain Davis' article linked to below:

COVID19 – Evidence Of Global Fraud | Off Guardian

Holy Link War!

Lol :-). As you may have seen by now, I've now moved beyond simply linking articles and have started to quote material therein.
 
I think we can all agree that the sun exists.

Not according to you.

No, I definitely believe that the sun exists.

As to viruses, saying that they exist doesn't make it so. I'm not sure what you mean by proof by identity, but again simply saying that doesn't make them exist either.

They can be observed.

I haven't seen any hard evidence that any biological virus has ever been observed.

They can be sequenced.

I haven't seen any hard evidence that any biological virus has ever truly been sequenced either.
 
It matters if they have knowledge on a given subject. In this case, the subject is viruses, and I definitely believe some if not all of the people who signed the statement linked to in the opening post have a significant amount of knowledge on the subject.

Paradox. Irrational. You can't have people being an 'expert' on something they say doesn't exist!

By that logic, a theologist that doesn't believe in a particular God couldn't be an expert on said God simply because they don't believe it exists. Knowledge is obtained by examining the facts, not by believing things. Ideally, what we believe should be based on facts, but, unfortunately, this isn't always the case.

You can observe microbes with an electron microscope.

That you can.

Always good to establish what we can agree on.

The issue is whether any of those microbes are biological viruses.

Bacteria can be observed with a good optical microscope.

Again, agreed.

Viruses can be observed with an electron microscope.

They certainly -should- be able to be observed, if they actually existed. I have not seen evidence that any biological viruses have been observed, however.

The issue is whether any of those microbes are biological viruses.

Viruses are not living things. They are not 'biological'.

I have heard that argument before, though based on what I've read, I think there's room for debate on the subject. Many parasites are thought of as living beings, so I don't see why biological viruses couldn't be considered to be living, if they in fact existed. In any case, the reason I added biological to the viruses term is because I do believe in a -particular- type of virus- computer viruses.
 
By that logic, a theologist that doesn't believe in a particular God couldn't be an expert on said God simply because they don't believe it exists. Knowledge is obtained by examining the facts, not by believing things. Ideally, what we believe should be based on facts, but, unfortunately, this isn't always the case.

God is an idea. They can only study the words and scriptures, but not God itself.
 
Arther Firstenberg, author of "The Invisible Rainbow", provides evidence that that's not the case. From the book:

**
“Anxiety disorder,” afflicting one-sixth of humanity, did not exist before the 1860s, when telegraph wires first encircled the earth. No hint of it appears in the medical literature before 1866.
**

Firstenberg, Arthur. The Invisible Rainbow (p. 2). Chelsea Green Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Another passage further in:
**
It is easy to calculate, using these simple assumptions, that the electric fields beneath the earliest telegraph wires were up to 30,000 times stronger than the natural electric field of the earth at that frequency.
**

Source:
Firstenberg, Arthur. The Invisible Rainbow (p. 53). Chelsea Green Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Okay. This is the old 'electromagnetic fields are killing us' crap.

Your words, not mine, though I think we can agree that electromagnetic fields -can- kill, if the voltage is high enough.

Telegraph systems may use thousands of volts or operate with only a few volts. Some operate with only millivolts.
ALL such systems do produce magnetism AND electromagnetic waves, or light. This light is a VERY low frequency, far below even infrared light. At these frequencies, people are transparent. The light passes right through them and does not interact with any tissue. Indeed, such low frequencies will pass right through the Earth. It is also transparent at those frequencies.

Arther Firstenberg's investigations strongly suggest otherwise.

As frequencies increase, you starting getting into radio frequencies. These also do not interact with the body, which is still transparent to those frequencies.

There is plenty of evidence that radio frequencies can damage living beings. Arther Firstenberg certainly gets into plenty of evidence on this, but he's certainly not the only one here. I actually made a thread with evidence on evidence linking 5G with Covid back in August 2021 in another forum. It's here if you're interested:
Evidence that Covid 19 may have started due to 5G networks | thepoliticsforums.com
 
That isn't science. That is one man's opinion that proves nothing.

Unsubstantiated assertion.

Yes. He does make unsubstantiated assertions. Lots of them.

Pretty sure you know I was referring to your assertion, not any made by Iain Davis.

Why does the author not address the multitude Covid viruses that have been sequenced in the database.

Did you read Iain Davis' article in its entirety, as I did? It's more than long enough in my view. His main focus is on the Cov 2 virus. I'll quote 2 passages below that I think are particularly relevant:

**
The Wuhan scientists developed their genetic amplification assays from “sequence information” because there was no isolated, purified sample of the so called SARS-CoV-2 virus. They also showed electron microscope images of the newly discovered virions (the spiky protein ball containing the viral RNA.)

However, such protein structures are not unique. They look just like other round vesicles, such as endocytic vesicles and exosomes.

Things-500x164.jpg

Virologists claim that it is not possible to “isolate” a virus because they only replicate inside host cells. They add that Koch’s postulates do not apply because they relate to bacteria (which are living organisms). Instead, virologists observe the virus’ cytopathogenic effects (CPE), causing cell mutation and degradation, in cell cultures.

**

Source:
COVID19 – Evidence Of Global Fraud | Off Guardian


Further in, he has this to say on the alleged sequencing of the Cov 2 virus:

**
The Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention and the Shanghai Public Health Clinical Centre published the first full SARS-CoV-2 genome (MN908947.1 ). This has been updated many times. However, MN908947.1 was the first genetic sequence describing the alleged COVID 19 etiologic agent (SARS-CoV-2).

All subsequent claims, tests, treatments, statistics, vaccine development and resultant policies are based upon this sequence. If the tests for this novel virus don’t identify anything capable of causing illness in human beings, the whole COVID 19 narrative is nothing but a charade.

The WUHAN researchers stated that they had effectively pieced the SARS-CoV-2 genetic sequence together by matching fragments found in samples with other, previously discovered, genetic sequences. From the gathered material they found an 87.1% match with SARS coronavirus (SARS-Cov). They used de novo assembly and targeted PCR and found 29,891-base-pair which shared a 79.6% sequence match to SARS-CoV.

They had to use de novo assembly because they had no priori knowledge of the correct sequence or order of those fragments. Quite simply, the WHO’s statement that Chinese researchers isolated the virus on the 7th January is false.

**
 
By that logic, a theologist that doesn't believe in a particular God couldn't be an expert on said God simply because they don't believe it exists. Knowledge is obtained by examining the facts, not by believing things. Ideally, what we believe should be based on facts, but, unfortunately, this isn't always the case.

God is an idea. They can only study the words and scriptures, but not God itself.

A lot of people believe God is a lot more than an idea. As a Pantheist, I define God as everything that is. By that definition, studying anything would be studying a part of God.
 
A lot of people believe God is a lot more than an idea. As a Pantheist, I define God as everything that is. By that definition, studying anything would be studying a part of God.

True. You can measure the energy from nature. It is a living ecosystem.

And yet the Christian God can be applied to that as well. Christians always tell me to look around me as if it's a proof of God's existence.
 
True. You can measure the energy from nature. It is a living ecosystem.

And yet the Christian God can be applied to that as well. Christians always tell me to look around me as if it's a proof of God's existence.

I think we can agree that it all depends on the definition of God. I don't know anyone who would deny that everything exists. There are plenty of people who don't believe that Christianity's version of God is real though.
 
I think we can agree that it all depends on the definition of God. I don't know anyone who would deny that everything exists. There are plenty of people who don't believe that Christianity's version of God is real though.

Yeah. An idea in science is a hypothesis. The theory is developed by observations, measurements and experiments. Can the same be true for any version of god?

It works for the theory of viruses.
 
I think we can agree that it all depends on the definition of God. I don't know anyone who would deny that everything exists. There are plenty of people who don't believe that Christianity's version of God is real though.

Yeah. An idea in science is a hypothesis. The theory is developed by observations, measurements and experiments. Can the same be true for any version of god?

I'd think so.

It works for the theory of viruses.

A good point. In the case of alleged viruses, some doctors have come to believe that they are in fact exosomes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exosome_(vesicle)

As an aside, I think your animated cat is pretty cute :-). I've been living with my father for a while. We started with 4 cats, but one of them had kittens, so we now have 8 :-p.
 
Can you prove that any microbe seen under an electron microscope is actually a biological virus?
RQAA.
I'm guessing you are referring to the Argument from Ignorance fallacy. Quoting Wikipedia's introduction to it:
It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true.
Not the argument from ignorance fallacy. Wikipedia is once again wrong. An argument from ignorance fallacy is a set error: ?!A(n)->!A(). It is the inverse of a compositional error.
You cannot use Wikipedia as a reference with me. It is too often incomplete, biased, or just plain wrong. They do not define logic or any axiom of logic.
I have never claimed that I can prove that viruses don't exist.
Yes you did. Don't try to deny your own posts. ANYONE can go back and look for themselves.
You and others here, however, have claimed that viruses do exist
They do.
and seem to be suggesting that this is true so long as I can't prove that they don't exist.
Word stuffing.
Sounds like an Argument from Ignorance to me.
It's not. Wikipedia is wrong once again.
Saying the virus exists doesn't make it so.
Viruses exist by definition. Proof by identity.
As to Iain Davis' article, I think at this point it might be a good idea to quote some of it, as I think it can do a better job of explaining the flaws in the Cov 2 virus narrative than I can...
Cut and pasting is mindless. You have no mind of your own.
The Wuhan Center for Disease Control and Prevention and the Shanghai Public Health Clinical Centre published the first full SARS-CoV-2 genome (MN908947.1 ). This has been updated many times. However, MN908947.1 was the first genetic sequence describing the alleged COVID 19 etiologic agent (SARS-CoV-2).

They are not the only ones to sequence this virus.
All subsequent claims, tests, treatments, statistics, vaccine development and resultant policies are based upon this sequence.
WRONG.
Subsequent claims are based on politics, not any virus.
Tests are based in antibodies, not the virus itself, but the body's response to the presence of the virus.
Treatments from Pfizer and J&J cause covid19 infection. They do not prevent it. Each 'booster' shot does the same thing.
If the tests for this novel virus don’t identify anything capable of causing illness in human beings, the whole COVID 19 narrative is nothing but a charade.
They do. From here, you are making a circular argument fallacy (fundamentalism).
The WUHAN researchers stated that they had effectively pieced the SARS-CoV-2 genetic sequence together by matching fragments found in samples with other, previously discovered, genetic sequences. From the gathered material they found an 87.1% match with SARS coronavirus (SARS-Cov). They used de novo assembly and targeted PCR and found 29,891-base-pair which shared a 79.6% sequence match to SARS-CoV.
They had to use de novo assembly because they had no priori knowledge of the correct sequence or order of those fragments. Quite simply, the WHO’s statement that Chinese researchers isolated the virus on the 7th January is false.
So the WHO lied. What else is new?
No, you cannot use the Guardian as a reference with me either. Same problem as Wikipedia.
Well, since I don't believe a Cov 2 virus exists, I can certainly agree that it hasn't killed anyone.
It doesn't matter what you believe. The virus exists. NONE of the viruses from the Covid/SARS series of viruses kill. This one seems mildest of all of them so far discovered.
Again, I'd have to disagree on this bit about the vaccines making Cov 2 viruses, as I don't believe they exist at all, but I certainly believe that all the Covid vaccines I've seen are toxic and should not be injected into anyone.
What is the toxin?
I certainly agree that the logic here is incredibly twisted.
It is not logic. It is a paradox. Arguing it is irrational.
I certainly agree with that as well, although I believe the logic for them is that masks are more meant to protect others than to protect oneself. It's not an argument I agree with.
This is simply the first corollary of Paradox M. If you are not sick, why are you wearing a mask???!?
I certainly agree that masks can build up nasty stuff. I generally used reusable cotton masks when I had to, and felt I had to wash them every few days or I'd sneeze in them.
Cotton masks build up significant bacteria and fungi in just a couple of hours. Wearing them longer than that is NOT recommended. You don't need to sneeze into the mask for this to happen. Fungi and respiratory bacteriological infections are no joke.
We at least agree on the fraud part :-p.
I suppose there is at least that.
 
True. You can measure the energy from nature. It is a living ecosystem.

And yet the Christian God can be applied to that as well. Christians always tell me to look around me as if it's a proof of God's existence.

Such an argument is a circular argument fallacy. It is fundamentalism. It is not possible to prove whether any god or gods exist, or whether no god or gods exist.
If, however, one simply tells you to look at the evidence of a god or gods, or the evidence that there is no god or gods, that is simply a circular argument, not a fallacy. The other name for the circular argument is the Argument of Faith.

The moment someone tries to use that evidence as a proof, the circular argument fallacy occurs.
 
I think we can agree that it all depends on the definition of God. I don't know anyone who would deny that everything exists. There are plenty of people who don't believe that Christianity's version of God is real though.

Quite true. There are a lot of people that believe in no god or gods at all. That is a religion like any other. It is based on faith.

Every religion is based on some initial circular argument, with other arguments stemming from that. For example, in Christianity, the initial circular argument is that Christ exists, and He is who He says He is, namely the Son of God. ALL other arguments stem from that initial circular argument.

The circular argument by itself is not a fallacy. Trying to prove a circular argument either True or False creates the fallacy. This is what a fundamentalist does.
 
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