Software engineers aren't real engineers

Knowing computer languages proves nothing. SQL isn't even a programming language. It's a database language that is rapidly becoming obsolete. COBOL (it's an acronym, all letters are capitalized) is still used in government and large financial departments, but it too is becoming more obsolete by the day. C# is a proprietary programming language written by Microsoft and only fully runs on Microsoft environments. It is useless outside of Windows. I imagine the CIGNA software he developed has more to do with accounting than engineering.

Computers are not engines nor structures though they are machines. He didn't design or maintain either. He has done no engineering.

Too bad his career bothers you so. He did quite well at it. Many ppl can put together a computer and its hardware with little to no formal training. Designing large databases, otoh, is a few orders above that, as is designing UIs for the end users to access them. Apparently your own career hasn't gone so well, or you wouldn't feel the need to denigrate someone else's.
 
It surely is. Here is the accreditation from ABET for University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana campus, Mr. Owl's alma mater:

http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=211&ProgramIDs=

That is actually hilarious. The wingnut provided a website no one has ever heard of.
And you provided the actual ABET engineering website.

What we should all takeaway is that it takes a person with a remarkable inferiority complex to invest time bad mouthing the college degree of someone they don't know, they will never meet, and is not here to defend themselves.
 
That is actually hilarious. The wingnut provided a website no one has ever heard of.
And you provided the actual ABET engineering website.

What we should all takeaway is that it takes a person with a remarkable inferiority complex to invest time bad mouthing the college degree of someone they don't know, they will never meet, and is not here to defend themselves.

For real. For some reason, they want to claim that "real" engineers make/design tangible stuff. According to the ABET site, however, that description seems to be Engineering Technology rather than pure Engineering:

"Graduates of four-year engineering technology programs are most likely to enter positions in sectors such as construction, manufacturing, product design, testing, or technical services and sales. "
 
For real. For some reason, they want to claim that "real" engineers make/design tangible stuff. According to the ABET site, however, that description seems to be Engineering Technology rather than pure Engineering:

"Graduates of four-year engineering technology programs are most likely to enter positions in sectors such as construction, manufacturing, product design, testing, or technical services and sales. "

I have never really liked the superiority complex and disdain some in the natural sciences show towards the social sciences; aka, its not "real science".

I have never been one to fixate on turf wars like that. It wasn't until the last two hundred years until people started even drawing bright lines between science, natural philosophy and the humanities. In my opinion, if one is developing hypothesis, testing them, making observations, analyzing data, practicing inductive reasoning, and drawing reasonable conclusions, then one is basically practicing the scientific method.
 
Have you ever known an engine or structure that was bug free? Every aircraft, every ship, every road, every bridge, every building, every traffic light, every electrical system, ALL of it are compromises in design. Those compromises come from cost of materials, purpose of the object, etc. They ALL have bugs.

Even a 'hello' program in a computer has bugs. It's in the libraries you use.

A compromise isn't a bug.
 
Indeed. I can't recall a time when a building I have occupied failed to allow ingress or provide shelter, though. I can think of plenty of software glitches that prevented me from using the functionality the program was designed to provide.

There are certainly libraries and applications that don't function at all (or even compile correctly under normal conditions). That is a bit like forgetting to put a door in the building.
 
Too bad his career bothers you so.
It doesn't. Never said it did. It was your comment that bothered me, not his career.
He did quite well at it.
I'm sure he has. COBOL programmers can get paid quite well. DBA's can also get paid quite well.
Many ppl can put together a computer and its hardware with little to no formal training.
That is not engineering. That is building a computer kit. Snap together PC's are quite common.
Designing large databases, otoh, is a few orders above that,
Not by much. It's just using snap together libraries to organize data.
as is designing UIs for the end users to access them.
Most people suck at this, because programmers think they are UI designers. UI design has nothing to do with programming. It is best handled by a separate group, more closely tied with marketing (but not part of marketing).
Apparently your own career hasn't gone so well,
But it has. I am the owner of a successful sensor company. I design and build sensors for industrial, aerospace, and medical uses.
or you wouldn't feel the need to denigrate someone else's.
I'm not denigrating his career. I am commenting about your post and your use of the languages you listed as if they were proof of programming as engineering.
 
I have never really liked the superiority complex and disdain some in the natural sciences show towards the social sciences; aka, its not "real science".

I have never been one to fixate on turf wars like that. It wasn't until the last two hundred years until people started even drawing bright lines between science, natural philosophy and the humanities. In my opinion, if one is developing hypothesis, testing them, making observations, analyzing data, practicing inductive reasoning, and drawing reasonable conclusions, then one is basically practicing the scientific method.

Science isn't a 'method' or a 'procedure'. It is a set of falsifiable theories. Nothing more, nothing less.

Social 'sciences' do not make use of falsifiable theories. They are not science.
 
I've heard some stories about the life of a programmer here in Microsoft land. They hire young graduates, bring them out here, and work them to death, until they burn-out.
 
Heh. The Ford Motor Company DOES put out products that fail routinely. That's why I don't buy Fords.

There are such things as doctors that are not part of any medical board. They are not doctors of medicine. There are such things as engineers that are not part of civil engineering, electrical engineering, or any licensed form of engineering. Aerospace engineers are typically not licensed at all. They don't even have an FAA license like a mechanic has, nor even a pilot's license. There are a lot of them in Washington State, and the State does not require them to be licensed. They don't require electronics engineers to be licensed either.

There is such a thing as computer engineering. They are not programmers. They have little to do with software at all. They design new computer equipment and it's peripherals. They involve mechanical engineers, electronics engineers, electrical engineers, as well as lithographers and photographers. There is no title 'computer engineer', but there is computer engineering.

That said, your argument has a certain amount of merit. A lot of people that develop software are script kiddies calling themselves engineers. A lot of programmers out there couldn't code their way out of a wet paper bag. It's a real problem.

I design and build instrumentation for industrial controls, aerospace, and medical uses. These sensors are in critical locations. If they fail, loss of life or loss of property can result. Most of these sensors require software to run. That software is also in a position that can cause loss of life or loss of property. It MUST run reliably. The answer to this is thorough testing, which is NOT done by most companies.

Microsoft, for example, hires armies of 'testers', yet they do almost no testing at all. What they do is what is called 'regression testing' over and over. This form of testing is used to determine of a change in code causes a known bug to resurface. It does nothing for new bugs. Thus, Windows is not tested. Neither is Office, nor any any other product from Microsoft. If it compiles and manages to survive regression testing for a week or two, they ship it. This is why most people don't use Windows for web services, cell phones, or any critical application like industrial controls or aerospace controls. There are some, of course, and it is these products that crash and burn.

Apple isn't much better.

In the end, open software is the key. These are systems like Linux and Unix. If a fault develops in a package, people are free to correct it since they have the source already. Some packages are better maintained than others, of course. The quality of programmers writing this stuff is quite wide. Some are brilliant, others suck green tidewater. None are engineers.

Yet, software can and does run in life critical applications and property critical applications. All modern cars today are FADEC designs. That means the engine requires a computer to run them. They have no distributors, no carburetor, not even a cable connecting the accelerator pedal to the engine throttle. They are literally drive by wire. Aircraft too are using FADEC engines. Software runs those engines. If it screws up, the engine may be damaged, and the aircraft itself may be put at risk.

But they run very well. They have done so for years and years. Those glass cockpits you see when you board your flight are designed by engineers, some licensed, some not. They also require good programmers.

Is programming engineering? Generally no. Engineering has to do with the design and maintenance of engines or structure or engine or structural components. Programmers do not design the CPU nor maintain it. They just use it. Networks and software are not structural nor have anything to do with engines (except by application).

Does ABET own engineering? No. It is an accrediting organization. That's all. It is political in nature. They do, however, consider computer programming engineering, so your opening statement is wrong. I generally disagree with them on this point.

Do engineers create crappy products? Sure. Bridges fail, sometimes spectacularly (remember Galloping Gerdy?). Aircraft designs fail, sometimes spectacularly (remember the Comet?). Trains crash because their engineers fell asleep. All of these are developed by civil, mechanical, and aerospace engineers; all licensed. The train engineer is licensed also.

Does a license make an engineer? No. A license is generally an indication of a test completed, a fee paid, or both. That's all. States do not own or create engineers. Other nations have lots of engineers with no license at all. They simply don't require them. Yet, they are engineers.

Engineers are not created by ABET, not created by any license, and not created by any society, political organization, or even a degree. They are engineers because of what they do, not because of a political organization gives them any blessing of any sort.
Fascinating and enlightening.
 
You do realize that there is a difference between "programming" and "systems design," right?

Yes. Systems design has nothing to do with programming or even touching a programming language or database language of any kind.
Programming makes use of programming languages. It may make use of database languages as well.
 

Very few Chemical Engineers or Material Engineers are PE’s. Those are ABET accredited curriculums. Are you saying they are not Engineers? Professional Engineers are licensed because they serve the public for which they take an oath to make public service they’re highest priority. The Engineers ring represents that oath. However an engineer with an ABET accredited degree who does not serve the public is no less an engineer. They are just not licensed to serve the public. I’ve worked with a lot of Engineers and though PE’s are uniformly top notch, some of the best I’ve worked with we’re not PE’s.
 
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