Some basic facts on Gaza

[Into the Night]

IBAMoron's argument goes something like this:

There is a building in Gaza in which there are civilians and Hamas, et al., combatants mixed. The civilians may or may not be aiding the combatants in some fashion. The combatants in the building have been identified by their firing on Israeli troops or other evidence that proves they are combatants.

IBAM argues that Israel is legally obligated--like a police force would be--to not return fire on the building because they could hit civilian non-combatants. Instead, Israel should--again like a police force--try to negotiate the release of civilians from the building before doing any offensive action. To not do so, IBAM argues is a "war crime."

From a less insane, and more reasonable, interpretation of the Laws of Armed Conflict (not necessarily the US military view), there are identified combatants in the building along with a number of civilians who may or may not be aiding the combatants. Blowing the fuck out of the building to take out the combatants, along with collateral damage (dropping the building) including some civilian casualties because they are mixed in with combatants is allowed. In war that is reasonable and allowed.

The idea that a military should act as a police force is insane and wrong, but it's where IBAM is at.

Oh, that isn't "genocide" either. In fact, given that something close to two million people live in Gaza that around 10,000 have become casualties in a war says Israel has shown considerable restraint to creating collateral damage and non-combatant casualties.

I would say that about sums it up.

 

[IBDaMann]

You did not answer. You said, "I don't know". That is not an answer.

It is an answer, and it is my answer. Your question is also completely irrelevant and only serves to distract and EVADE. You didn't want to answer my question because you have taken the morally depraved position of cheering on the genocide of the civilian Arab Semite noncombatants of Gaza, and you can't have that revealed by any investigations ... so you ask me an irrelevant question to which I do not the answer as your attempt to derail my question.

Your dishonesty on this topic is totally transparent. You engage in special pleading fallacies to excuse Israel of heinous war crimes, you play word games to redefine "genocide" so that the IDF's genocide doesn't qualify as genocide, and you want nothing to be investigated so that it is never revealed that you take great pleasure in knowing that Arabs are being slaughtered for no reason other than they're Arabs, and Team Israel HATES Arabs, equating them with terrorists at every opportunity as a way of rationalizing assertions that Arabs fully deserve whatever they get.

That's a shitty position to have, and you don't have to admit to it, your dishonesty has more than given you away. All I asked was for you to join me in calling for fair investigations. When that causes you to panic, it's you that has something to hide ... and it's not too difficult to figure out exactly what it is. You and I disagree on that point. You want the IDF to slaughter Arabs wholesale in violation of the Geneva Conventions, and I do not. We can just agree to disagree.

No. Answer the question put to you. Answer the question put to you. RQAA. The answer is no.

Can you chant in b-flat?

 

[IBDaMann]

IBAMoron's argument goes something like this:

You keep repeating things that I have already told you are not the case. You are simply misrepresenting my position just so you can have something to attack instead of having to run from your own inhumane position.

IBAM argues that Israel is legally obligated--like a police force would be--to not return fire on the building because they could hit civilian non-combatants.

You are playing word games and misrepresenting my position. I clarified all of this and you simply ignore my clarification. Your complaints are dismissed.

Yes, Israel signed an international treaty obligating them to protect all lawful noncombatants. Israel is in full violation and should answer for it. All you can muster is to misrepresent my position. Why don't you pull up the treaty that Isarel signed and show where Israel is allowed to fire missiles into civilian populations. Why is it wrong for Hamas to slaughter innocent civilians but somehow OK for Israel? Aaaah, that's right, special pleading fallacies make everything right! I totally get it.

Your position is immoral.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

You keep repeating things that I have already told you are not the case. You are simply misrepresenting my position just so you can have something to attack instead of having to run from your own inhumane position.


You are playing word games and misrepresenting my position. I clarified all of this and you simply ignore my clarification. Your complaints are dismissed.

Yes, Israel signed an international treaty obligating them to protect all lawful noncombatants. Israel is in full violation and should answer for it. All you can muster is to misrepresent my position. Why don't you pull up the treaty that Isarel signed and show where Israel is allowed to fire missiles into civilian populations. Why is it wrong for Hamas to slaughter innocent civilians but somehow OK for Israel? Aaaah, that's right, special pleading fallacies make everything right! I totally get it.

Your position is immoral.

Should Ukraine be held accountable likewise, as another combatant in a war doing similar shit?

My position is both rational and logical. Militaries are not police and war shouldn't be a hostage situation or the like handled as if it were police trying to arrest criminals.

As for Israel, like it or not, they're 99.9% certain to win in Gaza to the extent they want to win. They won't be holding war crimes trials for their military that won a war. Your position is just stubborn, deliberate ignorance.

 

[IBDaMann]

I am familiar with the LOAC, a document that applies to only US military.

You aren't very familiar with it if you think it is a document, and only a US one at that. It's an international convention that is incorporated into military operations around the world. All countries are signatories.

Here's the UK's implementation.

UK Ministry of Defense: JSP 383 - THE JOINT SERVICE MANUAL OF THE LAW OF ARMED CONFLICT

Let's jump to the chase. Israel is a signatory as are all other countries. Israel vowed to protect civilian lawful noncombatants, however they are not doing that, mostly because they, like Team Israel, don't feel that Arabs qualify for human status.

The Geneva Conventions are not law.

Cut the word games because you suck at it. Israel signed up to protect civilians and are mowing down Arab women and children without any military cause. What's worse is that Israel can totally count on immoral people like you and the rest of Team Israel to fight tooth and nail to ensure everything is swept under the rug. I, for my part, am not going to let that happen. I want investigations and trials, and I want every dead child to be an "Exhibit A."

The Geneva Conventions are not law.

Aaaah, you switched to chanting in C#. Nice touch.

 

[IBDaMann]

Should Ukraine be held accountable likewise, as another combatant in a war doing similar shit?

Absolutely. There should be honest and thorough investigations every time there are indications that the laws of armed conflict are being violated. If the investigations reveal that everything is on the up-&-up then great, due diligence was performed. If the investigations indicate that trials are warranted, then the trials should occur, and they should be completely fair.

What should never happen is for due diligence to be abandoned out of fandom for a particular side in a conflict, or because of HATE for a particular side in a conflict.

My position is both rational and logical.

I totally dispute this. Your argument is based on the strange and mistaken idea that military soldiers can't perform functions similar to law enforcement personnel. You are mistaken.

Militaries are not police

Horticulturists aren't auto mechanics. Credenzas aren't basketballs.

Wait a minute, I just realized that militaries have loads in common with law enforcement personnel, to include the obligation to protect innocent bystanders and to completely protect the noncombatants under their control and under their authority. You know, now you've gotten me looking at this in a new light. I learned from the Geneva Conventions, of which Israel is a signatory, that the moment Israel invaded Gaza, the Palestinians were under Israeli authority, and Israel incurred the complete obligation to protect every single noncombatant. Wow. Every single one! This contrasts diametrically with your claims that the IDF can mow down whomever they wish as long as they call it "colateral damage" and refer to all the deaths as "inevitable." The Geneva Conventions indicate that you are way off base.

I recommend you have yourself a read.

... and war shouldn't be a hostage situation or the like handled as if it were police trying to arrest criminals.

If Israel doesn't feel competent to wage war legally in Gaza because it's "crowded" then perhaps they shouldn't have invaded.

As for Israel, like it or not, they're 99.9% certain to win in Gaza to the extent they want to win.

Great. It shouldn't be too difficult to win a war waged against lawful noncombatants. I still claim that Israel should have attacked Iran, the party responsible for the attack on Israel, instead of using the IDF to perpetrate genocide on the HATED subhuman Arab civilians next door, but maybe some war crime trials will persuade Israel to never do that again.

They won't be holding war crimes trials for their military that won a war.

I can nonetheless call for investigations, and let warranting investigations call for trials.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Israel is not perfect, but wants peace, and does not use civilians as human shields.



No "settlers" in Gaza. Gaza is 100% given over to Gazans.

1. Bullshit! Yahoo's zionist gov't wants that land rid of non-jews AND all that nifty natural gas deposits off shore.

2. Not that cut & dry: https://www.internationalaffairs.or...-territories-and-illegal-israeli-settlements/

 

[T. A. Gardner]

 

[Walt]

1. Bullshit! Yahoo's zionist gov't wants that land rid of non-jews AND all that nifty natural gas deposits off shore

The main gas deposits are off the shore of northern Israel, so not really an issue.

Gaza is more densely populated than Tokyo or London. That means Israel got the maximum amount of land, for the minimum number of Palestinians. Any more land means a minimal amount of land, for a maximum number of Palestinians in Israel... Not worth it.

Israel does not want Gaza. Egypt does not want Gaza. No one wants Gaza. 2.4 million people live in a void, and that is a problem.

2. Not that cut & dry: https://www.internationalaffairs.org...i-settlements/

In Gaza, it is that cut and dry. There is no point to Israeli settlements there.

 

[IBDaMann]

 

[Into the Night]

It is an answer, and it is my answer.

"I don't know" is not an answer. Answer the question put to you. You are just whining.

Your question is also completely irrelevant and only serves to distract and EVADE.

It is completely relevant.

You didn't want to answer my question

I did. The answer is no.

because you have taken the morally depraved position of cheering on the genocide of the civilian Arab Semite noncombatants of Gaza,

There is no genocide.

and you can't have that revealed by any investigations ...

Answer the question put to you.

so you ask me an irrelevant question to which I do not the answer as your attempt to derail my question.

It is relevant. Answer the question put to you.

Your dishonesty on this topic is totally transparent.

You are describing yourself. Inversion fallacy.

You engage in special pleading fallacies

Fallacy fallacy. Answer the question put to you.

to excuse Israel of heinous war crimes,

What 'war crimes'?

you play word games to redefine "genocide"

I don't redefine words. Inversion fallacy. This word first appeared in the English lexicon in 1944, coined by Raphael Lemkin. Taken from the Greek 'genos', meaning 'beget' and '-cide', meaning 'killing'. It has always meant the intentional killing of a tribe.

and you want nothing to be investigated

Answer the question put to you. Whining a chant is meaningless until you do.

so that it is never revealed that you take great pleasure in knowing that Arabs are being slaughtered for no reason other than they're Arabs, and Team Israel HATES Arabs, equating them with terrorists at every opportunity as a way of rationalizing assertions that Arabs fully deserve whatever they get.

Not happening. You are hallucinating.

That's a shitty position to have,

That 'shitty position' is based on YOUR hallucination.

and you don't have to admit to it,

Admit what?

your dishonesty has more than given you away.

Inversion fallacy.

All I asked was for you to join me in calling for fair investigations.

Answer the question put to you, whiner.

When that causes you to panic, it's you that has something to hide ... and it's not too difficult to figure out exactly what it is.

I'm not panicking. Hallucination. I'm not hiding anything. Hallucination. WTF do you THINK I'm 'hiding'?

You and I disagree on that point.

A random statement is not a 'point'.

You want the IDF to slaughter Arabs wholesale in violation of the Geneva Conventions, and I do not.

There is no genocide.

We can just agree to disagree.

I'll not sit here and let you accuse me of supporting genocide when NONE IS OCCURRING. I'll not sit here and let you get away with whining without answering the question I have put to you. "I don't know" is not an answer. It only shows you are whining and chanting without meaning.

Can you chant in b-flat?

YOUR problem. Don't try to blame YOUR problem on me. Inversion fallacy.

 

[Into the Night]

You keep repeating things that I have already told you are not the case.

No, he's got you pegged pretty well, dude.

You are simply misrepresenting my position just so you can have something to attack instead of having to run from your own inhumane position.

No, he's got you pegged pretty well, dude. His is NOT in inhumane position. He understands war, the LOAC, and the Geneva Conventions far better than YOU do.

You are playing word games and misrepresenting my position.

He is not playing word games. YOU ARE. Inversion fallacy.

I clarified all of this and you simply ignore my clarification. Your complaints are dismissed.

Hallucinations are not 'clarification'. Dismissing an argument without counterargument is an argument of the Stone fallacy.

Yes, Israel signed an international treaty obligating them to protect all lawful noncombatants.

Go read the Geneva conventions. As far as I can determine, Israel is conforming to the Geneva Convention 3, which they are a signatory to. BTW, Hamas never signed any such treaty.
Since you keep chanting that Israel broke this treaty, I ask again...answer the question put to you. Your mindless whining is meaningless until you do.

Israel is in full violation and should answer for it.

Mindless whining. Answer the question put to you.

All you can muster is to misrepresent my position.

He is NOT misrepresenting your position. He's got you pegged pretty well.

Why don't you pull up the treaty that Isarel signed

No need. The Geneva Convention 3 is available for everyone to see. It allows for civilian casualties.

and show where Israel is allowed to fire missiles into civilian populations.

Go read that treaty. ALL of it. It allows for civilian casualties. Quoting excerpts from that treaty that have nothing to do with wartime won't work.

Why is it wrong for Hamas to slaughter innocent civilians but somehow OK for Israel?

There is no genocide.

Aaaah, that's right, special pleading fallacies make everything right!

Fallacy fallacy. No special pleading is occurring here (other than the one based on YOUR hallucination).

I totally get it.

Obviously not.

Your position is immoral.

Just because a person calls you on your hallucinations does NOT make him immoral. Mantra 1e.

 

[Into the Night]

You aren't very familiar with it if you think it is a document,

It is a document.

and only a US one at that.

It is a US document.

It's an international convention

It is not. It is a US document.

that is incorporated into military operations around the world.

It is not incorporated into military operations around the world, unless you are a US soldier.

All countries are signatories.

There are no 'signatories' to the LOAC.

Here's the UK's implementation.
UK Ministry of Defense: JSP 383 - THE JOINT SERVICE MANUAL OF THE LAW OF ARMED CONFLICT

Another document, similar to the LOAC, that is used for British troops.

Let's jump to the chase. Israel is a signatory as are all other countries.

Israel never signed the LOAC nor the Joint Service Manual of the British military.

Israel vowed to protect civilian lawful noncombatants, however they are not doing that, mostly because they, like Team Israel, don't feel that Arabs qualify for human status.

Go read the Geneva Conventions.

Cut the word games because you suck at it.

Inversion fallacy.

Israel signed up to protect civilians and are mowing down Arab women and children without any military cause.

Israel DID protect civilians in conformance with the Geneva treaty 3. It is Hamas that doesn't. Of course, Hamas never signed that treaty.

What's worse is that Israel can totally count on immoral people like you

Mantra 1e.

and the rest of Team Israel to fight tooth and nail to ensure everything is swept under the rug.

Nothing is getting 'swept under the rug'. Cliche fallacy.

I, for my part, am not going to let that happen.

What happen?

I want investigations and trials, and I want every dead child to be an "Exhibit A."

Answer the question put to you. Chanting and whining without answering that question is meaningless.

Aaaah, you switched to chanting in C#. Nice touch.

Inversion fallacy.

 

[Into the Night]

Absolutely. There should be honest and thorough investigations every time there are indications that the laws of armed conflict are being violated. If the investigations reveal that everything is on the up-&-up then great, due diligence was performed. If the investigations indicate that trials are warranted, then the trials should occur, and they should be completely fair.

What should never happen is for due diligence to be abandoned out of fandom for a particular side in a conflict, or because of HATE for a particular side in a conflict.


I totally dispute this. Your argument is based on the strange and mistaken idea that military soldiers can't perform functions similar to law enforcement personnel. You are mistaken.


Horticulturists aren't auto mechanics. Credenzas aren't basketballs.

Wait a minute, I just realized that militaries have loads in common with law enforcement personnel, to include the obligation to protect innocent bystanders and to completely protect the noncombatants under their control and under their authority. You know, now you've gotten me looking at this in a new light. I learned from the Geneva Conventions, of which Israel is a signatory, that the moment Israel invaded Gaza, the Palestinians were under Israeli authority, and Israel incurred the complete obligation to protect every single noncombatant. Wow. Every single one! This contrasts diametrically with your claims that the IDF can mow down whomever they wish as long as they call it "colateral damage" and refer to all the deaths as "inevitable." The Geneva Conventions indicate that you are way off base.

I recommend you have yourself a read.


If Israel doesn't feel competent to wage war legally in Gaza because it's "crowded" then perhaps they shouldn't have invaded.


Great. It shouldn't be too difficult to win a war waged against lawful noncombatants. I still claim that Israel should have attacked Iran, the party responsible for the attack on Israel, instead of using the IDF to perpetrate genocide on the HATED subhuman Arab civilians next door, but maybe some war crime trials will persuade Israel to never do that again.


I can nonetheless call for investigations, and let warranting investigations call for trials.

Argument by repetition fallacy (chanting). Whining. Word games. Answer the question put to you.

 

[Into the Night]

1. Bullshit! Yahoo's zionist gov't wants that land rid of non-jews AND all that nifty natural gas deposits off shore.

2. Not that cut & dry: https://www.internationalaffairs.or...-territories-and-illegal-israeli-settlements/

Apparently you aren't aware that Israel has a lot of coastline.

 

[Into the Night]

Fallacy fallacy. There is no genocide. Mantra 1e.

 

[Taichiliberal]

The main gas deposits are off the shore of northern Israel, so not really an issue.

Gaza is more densely populated than Tokyo or London. That means Israel got the maximum amount of land, for the minimum number of Palestinians. Any more land means a minimal amount of land, for a maximum number of Palestinians in Israel... Not worth it.

Israel does not want Gaza. Egypt does not want Gaza. No one wants Gaza. 2.4 million people live in a void, and that is a problem.



In Gaza, it is that cut and dry. There is no point to Israeli settlements there.

Sorry, but reality trumps your revisionism:


Everybody Wants Gaza's Gas
The $500 billion windfall shoring up EU supplies


https://www.planetcritical.com/p/everybody-wants-gazas-gas


What are Israel and Palestine? Why are they fighting?


https://www.vox.com/2018/11/20/18080002/israel-palestine-conflict-history-overview-map

 

[Truth Detector]

Grow a conscience. Arabs aren't a sub-human species. The only ones slaughtering innocent civilians is the IDF, shit-for-brains. You're fucking blind. Grow a neuron.

There you go with the moronic, lie filled terrorist propaganda again. So, you're an antisemite as well as a terrorist loving moron. Got it.

No one in Gaza is "innocent." They voted for Hamas. They cheer Israeli deaths. They are used by Hamas as human shields. Grow a fucking brain already halfwit.

 

[Truth Detector]

Israel, on the other hand, chose well and doesn't need a new game. The "Death to Arabs" thing is working just fine for them.


Again, the whole genocide against Arab Semite civilian noncombatants is working out better than anticipated.


Israel's personal experience on the wrong end of the genocide attempt during Nazi Germany really taught the Israelis how to perpetrate a Holocaust and how to effectively attenuate any emotions of guilt or empathy.


The point is, maybe a few IDF officers need to hang in order for Israel to learn what they were never supposed to forget.

More asinine terrorist talking points. You give new meaning to the term "GULLIBLE MORON".

 

[Truth Detector]

Because you have no conscience.

You have no brains.

You're being the commensurate moron.

You're projecting again halfwit.

The IDF is firing missiles into civilian populations. Hamas is not involved.

Lie, lame and moronic. But alas, you're a moron who parrots terrorist narratives like a willful idiot.

Were we concerned about genocide in Nazi Germany?

Democrats were not. Roosevelt was not. Truman was not. The NY Times was not. They only started caring when the massive photographic evidence was produced.

Why is it somehow OK for Israel to do the same thing?

Suggesting that Israel is committing atrocities like the Nazis is evidence that you have no brains, or are just a simple minded moron who parrots terrorist propaganda.

There is no genocide being committed in Gaza. Look up the meaning of owrds before stupidly using them to support terrorist propaganda halfwit.

The sad truth about a moron like you is that you don't know you're a moron.

Answer: Your special pleading fallacy.[/COLOR]

More projection from a halfwit boring us with terrorist fallacies.