Some basic facts on Gaza

[T. A. Gardner]

This is not my position. My position is that Israel is obligated to abide by the laws of armed conflict, even if T. A. Gardner doesn't know what those are.

No, Israel is not. The Law of Armed Conflict is a US thing that applies to US forces and nobody else.

Everybody adheres to the laws of armed conflict or else they answer for them. Just not Israel. Team Israel wants the civilian Arab Semite noncombatants in Gaza eradicated and has therefore preemptively excused all war crimes on the part of the IDF.

Clearly this is utter bullshit. The Ukrainians don't. The Russians sure as hell don't. The Chinese don't...
Incorrect. It was required annual training for military more than a decade prior to that. Of course, it was the law long before even that.

The US' implementation does, in fact, contain a lot of booooolsch't. For example, it is perfectly acceptable to destroy an enemy fighter jet, killing the pilot. It is strictly prohibited, however, to use an ultra-high-powered laser to blind the pilot, forcing him to eject and remain alive, because that would be too cruel. Dum-dum bullets are prohibited because they increase the probability that a soldier will kill whomever he hits, and that is cruel, despite it being the soldier's singular intention.

That's because the US implementation is singular to the DoD and US military.

Nobody gets to discard the laws of armed conflict by pointing to any country's stupid incorporation of those laws into their military operations.

Everybody does unless you are the US military. The international version isn't the US version, and is much more generic and less specific.

Congress will nonetheless make laws that govern how our military operates. All countries are responsible for ensuring that their militaries operate within LOAC. Thus military commanders listen to their lawyers who are assigned to keep commanders from the gallows.

That's fine. Most nations don't let lawyers make any decisions about military operations.

Incorrect. You don't know what you're talking about. The military incorporates all of Congress' laws into their doctrine and their training, and that includes requiring every soldier to take mandatory LOAC training.

That training became mandatory in 2020.

Not as police, as military who have captured POWs. Have you never heard that term? The military is fully responsible for the safety and well being of all POWs in their custody. How do you not know this?

You think the military is a police force.

Israel has not found it necessary to adhere to LOAC. My hope is that all of their seeming war crimes will be investigated.

If Israel wins, that's highly unlikely.

They are perpetrating genocide to obtain real results.

No they're not. You, like Humpty Dumpty, are just making up definitions for words.

IDF commanders might very well be fucked as a result.

Not if they win.

Remember:

The only true war crime is losing.

 

[IBDaMann]

No, Israel is not. The Law of Armed Conflict is a US thing that applies to US forces and nobody else.

Like I said, you have no idea what you are talking about, and it is deliberate. You could have easily looked up this information in the Geneva Conventions (which applies to everyone) but you have instead repeatedly insisted on excusing the IDF for its war crimes.

The parts in bold cover the flagrant violations by the IDF:

Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in
the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict
shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of
armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de
combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all
circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any
other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time
and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
b) taking of hostages;
c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without
previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.
An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee
of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.
The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force,
by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the
present Convention.

The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

Clearly this is utter bullshit. The Ukrainians don't. The Russians sure as hell don't.

You are deliberately omitting the clause "or answer for it" which occurs in many political forums, not just war crimes tribunals.

That training became mandatory in 2020.

Nope. It became mandatory annual training more than a decade earlier.

You think the military is a police force.

You don't get to declare what I think, especially when I have expressly told you the opposite.

No they're not.

Yes, they absolutely are. The brutal massacre that claims about 300 innocent civilians per day on average, in wanton disregard for the law of armed conflict, calls for the label "genocide" as the only appropriate word. One would have to be playing word games to use any other word.

 

[IBDaMann]

There is no genocide. Answer the question put to you.

It is outright genocide. ~300 innocent civilians/day. Answer the question put to you.

 

[IBDaMann]

Inversion fallacy. Answer the question put to you.

EVASION fallacy. Answer the question put to you.

 

[Walt]

It is outright genocide. ~300 innocent civilians/day. Answer the question put to you.

Hamas killed 1,200+ innocent civilians in one day, and would kill more if not defeated. They then hide behind innocent civilians to help protect them while they kill more innocent civilians.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Hamas killed 1,200+ innocent civilians in one day, and would kill more if not defeated. They then hide behind innocent civilians to help protect them while they kill more innocent civilians.

- a twisted "tit for tat" in a never ending war .... a retaliation for all the killings done by the illegal "settlers" over the years.

- there is no "battlefield", courtesy of the Israeli gov't shoving a population into an open prison, then throwing a party right outside the wall that separates the prison from Israel.

- War is done by the desperate, the arrogant and the stupid.

 

[Walt]

- a twisted "tit for tat" in a never ending war

Israel is not perfect, but wants peace, and does not use civilians as human shields.

a retaliation for all the killings done by the illegal "settlers" over the years.

No "settlers" in Gaza. Gaza is 100% given over to Gazans.

 

[IBDaMann]

Hamas killed 1,200+ innocent civilians in one day, and would kill more if not defeated.

We're talking about the IDF. The topic is Israel's genocide of innocent civilian Arab Semite noncombatants who never attacked Israel. If you'd like to talk about Hamas, then by all means create a thread for it. The IDF is supposed to be waging legal warfare and adhering to the Geneva Conventions, but instead they are massacring innocent civilian noncombatants as if they are the military targets, at an average rate of about 300 per day, mostly women and children who were just living their lives until the IDF decided to launch air strikes on the civilian population centers, clear war crimes.

For your reading pleasure:

GENEVA CONVENTION
FOR THE AMELIORATION OF THE CONDITION OF THE WOUNDED
AND SICK IN ARMED FORCES IN THE FIELD OF 12 AUGUST 1949

CHAPTER I
General Provisions
Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in
the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict
shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of
armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de
combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all
circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race,
colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time
and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
b) taking of hostages;
c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without
previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.
An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee
of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.
The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force,
by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the
present Convention.

The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

They then hide behind innocent civilians to help protect them while they kill more innocent civilians.

Incorrect. You are regurgitating what you have been told to say. It is not true that Hamas hides behind human shields when in conflicts with Israel because they cannot. For humans to be used as shields, they have to function as shields, but Israel is too busy recklessly killing everybody within range of an airstrike that it won't do any good to try to hide behind other humans. Besides, if those "human shields" are Arabs then that's who the IDF is trying to eradicate in the first place.

Hamas were the bad guys on the morning of October 7th, and then the IDF assumed that role for the latter half of the day and just remained the genocidal war criminals up to the present moment.

 

[Hawkeye10]

We're talking about the IDF. The topic is Israel's genocide of innocent civilian Arab Semite noncombatants who never attacked Israel. If you'd like to talk about Hamas, then by all means create a thread for it. The IDF is supposed to be waging legal warfare and adhering to the Geneva Conventions, but instead they are massacring innocent civilian noncombatants as if they are the military targets, at an average rate of about 300 per day, mostly women and children who were just living their lives until the IDF decided to launch air strikes on the civilian population centers, clear war crimes.

For your reading pleasure:




Incorrect. You are regurgitating what you have been told to say. It is not true that Hamas hides behind human shields when in conflicts with Israel because they cannot. For humans to be used as shields, they have to function as shields, but Israel is too busy recklessly killing everybody within range of an airstrike that it won't do any good to try to hide behind other humans. Besides, if those "human shields" are Arabs then that's who the IDF is trying to eradicate in the first place.

Hamas were the bad guys on the morning of October 7th, and then the IDF assumed that role for the latter half of the day and just remained the genocidal war criminals up to the present moment.

We are talking about IDF/MOSSAD...which sure do suck now...

Just look at what happened Oct 7/8.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Here is the thing about the official Zionist claims....

If they are actually as bad as they claim they are then burning in Hell represents Justice.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Buckle Up.

 

[Into the Night]

Like I said, you have no idea what you are talking about, and it is deliberate.

You are describing yourself. Inversion fallacy.

You could have easily looked up this information in the Geneva Conventions (which applies to everyone)

The Geneva Conventions do NOT apply to everyone.

but you have instead repeatedly insisted on excusing the IDF for its war crimes.

Answer the question put to you.

The parts in bold cover the flagrant violations by the IDF:
You are deliberately omitting the clause "or answer for it" which occurs in many political forums, not just war crimes tribunals.
Nope. It became mandatory annual training more than a decade earlier.

You are describing the US military. Neither Israel nor Hamas is the United States.

You don't get to declare what I think, especially when I have expressly told you the opposite.

His is an interpretation of the position you have taken. Answer the question put to you.

Yes, they absolutely are. The brutal massacre that claims about 300 innocent civilians per day on average, in wanton disregard for the law of armed conflict, calls for the label "genocide" as the only appropriate word.

Not genocide and not happening.

One would have to be playing word games to use any other word.

You are playing word games. Inversion fallacy.

 

[Into the Night]

It is outright genocide. ~300 innocent civilians/day. Answer the question put to you.

Not happening. There is no genocide. You have not asked a question. Answer the question put to you. Stop evading.

 

[Into the Night]

EVASION fallacy. Answer the question put to you.

LIF. Grow up.

 

[Into the Night]

We're talking about the IDF.

We are talking about the war between Israel and Hamas. His comment is on topic.

The topic is Israel's genocide of innocent civilian Arab Semite noncombatants who never attacked Israel.

There is no genocide.

If you'd like to talk about Hamas, then by all means create a thread for it.

The topic is appropriate here.

The IDF is supposed to be waging legal warfare and adhering to the Geneva Conventions,

As far as I can tell, they have.

but instead they are massacring innocent civilian noncombatants as if they are the military targets, at an average rate of about 300 per day, mostly women and children who were just living their lives until the IDF decided to launch air strikes on the civilian population centers, clear war crimes.

Not clear 'war crimes'. Answer the question put to you.

For your reading pleasure:

You quoted a part of the convention that doesn't apply here. The Geneva Convention is not a law either.

Incorrect. You are regurgitating what you have been told to say. It is not true that Hamas hides behind human shields when in conflicts with Israel because they cannot.

Blatant lie.

For humans to be used as shields, they have to function as shields, but Israel is too busy recklessly killing everybody within range of an airstrike that it won't do any good to try to hide behind other humans. Besides, if those "human shields" are Arabs then that's who the IDF is trying to eradicate in the first place.

Word games are not going to work, IBD.

Hamas were the bad guys on the morning of October 7th, and then the IDF assumed that role for the latter half of the day and just remained the genocidal war criminals up to the present moment.

There is no genocide.

 

[IBDaMann]

... answer the question put to you.

Will you join me in calling for honest and thorough investigations into the apparent war crimes perpetrated by the IDF, and for fair trials where appropriate as determined by the aforementioned investigations, so as to close out these seemingly abhorrent events/issues, and bring clarity and closure?

... or will you insist that everything be swept under the rug, and nothing investigated lest Team Israel be possibly put in a bad light?

You have not asked a question.

Smooth! I'll repeat my question that led to your pivot question that I answered but that you deny that I answered:

Will you join me in calling for honest and thorough investigations into the apparent war crimes perpetrated by the IDF, and for fair trials where appropriate as determined by the aforementioned investigations, so as to close out these seemingly abhorrent events/issues, and bring clarity and closure?

... or will you insist that everything be swept under the rug, and nothing investigated lest Team Israel be possibly put in a bad light?

Answer the question put to you.

 

[IBDaMann]

We are talking about the war between Israel and Hamas.

He inserted himself into discussion concerning the IDF. That was the topic of his commentary. You should follow along.

There is no genocide.

The denial that has no end.

As far as I can tell, they have.

You would lengthen the distance you can tell by developing your LOAC acumen.

Not clear 'war crimes'.

The IDF's war crimes are as clear as glass. Every single missile fired into a known population center that has not been evacuated is a war crime, and Israel has launched hundreds. The reason nobody from Team Israel is offering any explanations as to why these attacks are somehow not war crimes is because the only ones who claim they are not war crimes are people such as yourself who have no grasp of the Geneva Conventions or of LOAC. Those of Team Israel who understand LOAC are simply keeping their mouths shut. Of course, those who are not members of Team Israel and who understand LOAC are screaming from the tops of the highest mountains ... which is pointless because Team Israel is relishing the thought of a world without Palestinians and not a single member of Team Israel will demand an end to any of the IDF's war crimes, no matter how heinous.

The Geneva Convention is not a law either.

Correct. It delineates conventions for which people can be tried for violating.

Correction: I previously operated under the misconception that "hanging" was a potential sentence for war crimes, but it is not. Only prison time and monetary fines can be dispensed.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

IBAMoron's argument goes something like this:

There is a building in Gaza in which there are civilians and Hamas, et al., combatants mixed. The civilians may or may not be aiding the combatants in some fashion. The combatants in the building have been identified by their firing on Israeli troops or other evidence that proves they are combatants.

IBAM argues that Israel is legally obligated--like a police force would be--to not return fire on the building because they could hit civilian non-combatants. Instead, Israel should--again like a police force--try to negotiate the release of civilians from the building before doing any offensive action. To not do so, IBAM argues is a "war crime."

From a less insane, and more reasonable, interpretation of the Laws of Armed Conflict (not necessarily the US military view), there are identified combatants in the building along with a number of civilians who may or may not be aiding the combatants. Blowing the fuck out of the building to take out the combatants, along with collateral damage (dropping the building) including some civilian casualties because they are mixed in with combatants is allowed. In war that is reasonable and allowed.

The idea that a military should act as a police force is insane and wrong, but it's where IBAM is at.

Oh, that isn't "genocide" either. In fact, given that something close to two million people live in Gaza that around 10,000 have become casualties in a war says Israel has shown considerable restraint to creating collateral damage and non-combatant casualties.

 

[Into the Night]

Smooth! I'll repeat my question that led to your pivot question that I answered but that you deny that I answered:

You did not answer. You said, "I don't know". That is not an answer.

Will you join me in calling for honest and thorough investigations into the apparent war crimes perpetrated by the IDF, and for fair trials where appropriate as determined by the aforementioned investigations, so as to close out these seemingly abhorrent events/issues, and bring clarity and closure?

No. Answer the question put to you.

... or will you insist that everything be swept under the rug, and nothing investigated lest Team Israel be possibly put in a bad light?

Answer the question put to you.

Answer the question put to you.

RQAA. The answer is no.

 

[Into the Night]

He inserted himself into discussion concerning the IDF. That was the topic of his commentary. You should follow along.

I am following along. Discussing Hamas and why they attacked is appropriate here.

The denial that has no end.

The denial is YOURS. Inversion fallacy.

You would lengthen the distance you can tell by developing your LOAC acumen.

I am familiar with the LOAC, a document that applies to only US military. Neither Israel nor Hamas is the States.

The IDF's war crimes are as clear as glass.

What "war crimes"?

Every single missile fired into a known population center that has not been evacuated is a war crime, and Israel has launched hundreds.

Not a war crime. You really should look up the history of war and of the Geneva Conventions.

The reason nobody from Team Israel is offering any explanations as to why these attacks are somehow not war crimes is because the only ones who claim they are not war crimes are people such as yourself who have no grasp of the Geneva Conventions or of LOAC.

I understand both. It is YOU that doesn't.

Those of Team Israel who understand LOAC are simply keeping their mouths shut.

The LOAC does not apply to Israel.

Of course, those who are not members of Team Israel and who understand LOAC are screaming from the tops of the highest mountains

There are no mountains of significant size in West Virginia, and you don't understand the LOAC.

which is pointless because Team Israel is relishing the thought of a world without Palestinians

Blatant lie.

and not a single member of Team Israel will demand an end to any of the IDF's war crimes, no matter how heinous.

What "war crimes"?

Correct. It delineates conventions for which people can be tried for violating.

The Geneva Conventions are not law.

Correction: I previously operated under the misconception that "hanging" was a potential sentence for war crimes, but it is not. Only prison time and monetary fines can be dispensed.

The Geneva Conventions are not law. Answer the question put to you.