Swiftboating 2012

Aoxomoxoa said:
So the Taliban are saints and they just suffer from bad PR?
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Nope, never said that .. sorry if I haven't been clear.

What the Taliban are is Afghanis. What the Afghani women are is Afghanis.

The plight of Afghani women is only important to us when it crosses our strategic interests. When we leave, they're on their own.

This may enlighten you on my point ..

Status of Afghan women threatens Hillary Clinton's legacy
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/08/world/la-fg-hillary-clinton-afghanistan-20120409
 
j-mac said:
The "Murder"?
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That's the Pakistani perspective. Bin Laden was no saint and should have faced justice for the terrorist acts he was involved in.

9/11 was not one of them.

"Usama bin Laden (search ) made his first televised appearance in more than a year Friday in which he admitted for the first time ordering the Sept. 11 attacks and accused President Bush of "misleading" the American people.
Injecting himself into the campaign four days ahead of the presidential election, bin Laden said the United States can avoid another Sept. 11-style attack if it stops threatening the security of Muslims."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137095,00.html#ixzz23kgAfIua
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With all due respect, that's garbage. Bin Laden NEVER admitted to 9/11 .. and in fact, declared that he had no involvement in 9/11.

What you saw "admitting" to the crime was a fake.

Question: If these tapes were real .. why didn't the FBI ever charge him with the crime?

Because they had NO evidence that he did it. The tapes were an OBVIOUS fraud.

Question: Would not a real confession be considered as evidence?

Additionally ..

 
blackascoal said:
Nope, never said that .. sorry if I haven't been clear.

What the Taliban are is Afghanis. What the Afghani women are is Afghanis.

The plight of Afghani women is only important to us when it crosses our strategic interests. When we leave, they're on their own.

This may enlighten you on my point ..

Status of Afghan women threatens Hillary Clinton's legacy
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/08/world/la-fg-hillary-clinton-afghanistan-20120409
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This sounds very much like bullshit that was disseminated during Pol Pot's reign of terror where the West just abandoned the Cambodians to their fate. How ironic was it that the Vietnamese invaded and kicked the Kmer Rouge out.
 
Aoxomoxoa said:
This sounds very much like bullshit that was disseminated during Pol Pot's reign of terror where the West just abandoned the Cambodians to their fate. How ironic was it that the Vietnamese invaded and kicked the Kmer Rouge out.
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The only winners of our mindless wars is the military/industrial complex and the plutocracy that owns this country.
 
Aoxomoxoa said:
This sounds very much like bullshit that was disseminated during Pol Pot's reign of terror where the West just abandoned the Cambodians to their fate. How ironic was it that the Vietnamese invaded and kicked the Kmer Rouge out.
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I made the Vietnam/Afghanistan comparison the other day. They're very similar.

We cannot force a people to change how they live, or what political and religious persuasion they follow. They have to do it themselves. Eventually, the people of Vietnam did it, and eventually, the people of Afghanistan will return to the once-proud culture they shared.
 
Howey said:
I made the Vietnam/Afghanistan comparison the other day. They're very similar.

We cannot force a people to change how they live, or what political and religious persuasion they follow. They have to do it themselves. Eventually, the people of Vietnam did it, and eventually, the people of Afghanistan will return to the once-proud culture they shared.
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I'm sorry but any comparison between Vietnam and Afghanistan is just totally invalid and insane. The West abandoned the Afghans before and let the Taliban in, so now you advocate that we should just do the same again. You just want to get the hell out of there and hope that there will be a news blackout so you won't have to hear about the new atrocities to come.
 
Aoxomoxoa said:
I'm sorry but any comparison between Vietnam and Afghanistan is just totally invalid and insane. The West abandoned the Afghans before and let the Taliban in, so now you advocate that we should just do the same again. You just want to get the hell out of there and hope that there will be a news blackout so you won't have to hear about the new atrocities to come.
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What else should we do?

We cannot leave US forces in Afghanistan forever and they do not want our lifestyle or our "morals" .. for lack of a better word.

What do you think should be done?
 
blackascoal said:
The only winners of our mindless wars is the military/industrial complex and the plutocracy that owns this country.
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I'm sorry but you are doing exactly what most on the Left do, which is tap dance around the fact that once the West leaves the Taliban will flood back in huge numbers and attempt to return Afghanistan to a medieval shithole. That is the same apologetic rubbish that allowed the Kmer Rouge to reap such havoc. I was in Cambodia last year and I saw for myself what happens when the doctrine of necessary violence, as espoused by that stunted paedophile Jean Paul Sartre, is taken up by a fucking madman like Pol Pot. If you ever get a chance then I recommend a visit to Phnom Penh's S-21 Prison and the Choeung Ek extermination centre, it is something that will help to remove those rosy tinted glasses.
 
Aoxomoxoa said:
I'm sorry but any comparison between Vietnam and Afghanistan is just totally invalid and insane. The West abandoned the Afghans before and let the Taliban in, so now you advocate that we should just do the same again. You just want to get the hell out of there and hope that there will be a news blackout so you won't have to hear about the new atrocities to come.
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What do you recommend?

btw - These are interesting. From my research on Afghanistan a couple of years ago.

http://www.retronaut.co/2010/10/once-upon-a-time-in-afghanistan/

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/05/27/once_upon_a_time_in_afghanistan
 
Howey said:
What do you recommend?

btw - These are interesting. From my research on Afghanistan a couple of years ago.

http://www.retronaut.co/2010/10/once-upon-a-time-in-afghanistan/

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/05/27/once_upon_a_time_in_afghanistan
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I would not leave Afghans to their fate as the West did previously after the Soviets left, the case for remaining is hardly made these days. I ask you one simple question. How would you feel if the Taliban gained control of Pakistan? To my mind that is probably the most scary shit there is, much more so than what's happening in Iran or North Korea. I wish I could find the interview that Benazir Bhutto gave to the BBC shortly before she left exile to go back to Pakistan, she described exactly how the Taliban came into being after the Soviets left Afghanistan apart from mentioning her own naivety. I will try to track it down.
 
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Aoxomoxoa said:
This sounds very much like bullshit that was disseminated during Pol Pot's reign of terror where the West just abandoned the Cambodians to their fate. How ironic was it that the Vietnamese invaded and kicked the Kmer Rouge out.
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Once we got thrown out of 'Nam, we had nothing we could do , The sane thing to do would have been to ngotiate, but NVA wasn't interested.
Remember the table in Paris -negotiating a year over its shape? N. Vietnam knew we couldn't stay forever, and only had to wait out our various bombs,mines
( Hanoi harbor) Co-ordinated with ARVN ops. Crpetbombing. etc.

It was a long war, i wasn't there, from what i've heard we would win the battles but not the hearts and minds. ARVN wasn't all that keen to fight.
Vietnam was a prefabricated civil war, with the artificial divison. We tried to sway the outcome, but the north knew time was on their side.
The bottom line is clear: Our vital interests in Afghanistan are limited and military victory is not the key to achieving them. On the contrary, waging a lengthy counterinsurgency war in Afghanistan may well do more to aid Taliban recruiting than to dismantle the group, help spread conflict further into Pakistan, unify radical groups that might otherwise be quarreling amongst themselves, threaten the long-term health of the U.S. economy, and prevent the U.S. government from turning its full attention to other pressing problems. -- Afghanistan Study Group
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This says it ALL.

This is reality in Afg, while comparisons to Vietnam are valid, they are not the same - yes we created the Taliban, but as an anti-Soviet force.
We should have just left it at that. It's their land for self determination.It's a tribal situation only they can solve
 
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Aoxomoxoa said:
I'm sorry but you are doing exactly what most on the Left do, which is tap dance around the fact that once the West leaves the Taliban will flood back in huge numbers and attempt to return Afghanistan to a medieval shithole. That is the same apologetic rubbish that allowed the Kmer Rouge to reap such havoc. I was in Cambodia last year and I saw for myself what happens when the doctrine of necessary violence, as espoused by that stunted paedophile Jean Paul Sartre, is taken up by a fucking madman like Pol Pot. If you ever get a chance then I recommend a visit to Phnom Penh's S-21 Prison and the Choeung Ek extermination centre, it is something that will help to remove those rosy tinted glasses.
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I asked what do you think we should do? Occupy Afghanistan forever?

How many American lives would you put at risk for your pipe dream? It's a pipe dream.

We have NO ABILITY to determine the lives of the rest of the world .. just as we had no ability to do that in Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan.

Shouldn't we consider the consequences of our actions BEFORE we invade other countries?

The only winners are the MIC and war-profiteers and if you served in Vietnam, how is it that you don't know that?

Respectfully, you seem to have the same false belief that many on the right have. They don't understand the limits of military power.
 
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blackascoal said:
I asked what do you think we should do? Occupy Afghanistan forever?

How many American lives would you put at risk for your pipe dream? It's a pipe dream.

We have NO ABILITY to determine the lives of the rest of the world .. just as we had no ability to do that in Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan.

Shouldn't we consider the consequences of our actions BEFORE we invade other countries?

The only winners are the MIC and war-profiteers and if you served in Vietnam, how is it that you don't know that?

Respectfully, you seem to have the same false belief that many on the right have. They don't understand the limits of military power.
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Where did you get the idea that I served in Vietnam? I am from England and I said that I was in Vietnam and Cambodia last year. The Taliban were not always in Afghanistan, they were created by the West abandoning the country to its fate previously. Had Bush not gone into Iraq and concentrated his efforts on booting the Taliban out directly after 9/11 then I believe the situation would be vastly different now. I further believe that the West has a moral duty to protect the women and men of Afghanistan from the fate that awaits them if those medieval monsters are allowed back. OF course when that happens you will probably not know about it because there will a news blackout imposed by the Taliban so you won't have to be confronted with the consequences of the decision to abandon Afghanistan again.
 
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Howey said:
What do you recommend?

btw - These are interesting. From my research on Afghanistan a couple of years ago.

http://www.retronaut.co/2010/10/once-upon-a-time-in-afghanistan/

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/05/27/once_upon_a_time_in_afghanistan
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This is a fascinating background to how the heroin trade came about in Afghanistan. It is supremely ironic that hippies, many from the US, travelling through Afghanistan to get to Nepal were responsible for initiating the growing of poppies considering that these are the same type of people now who are most vociferous in abandoning the Afghans to their fate. This combined with the fact that US hydrology engineers in the '50s attempted to build some dams but ended up raising the water table and causing the soil to be contaminated with salt. The only thing that grows well in such soil is... yes you guessed it... Heroin!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2009/10/kabul_city_number_one_part_3.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2009/09/kabul_city_number_one.html
 
annata said:
Once we got thrown out of 'Nam, we had nothing we could do , The sane thing to do would have been to ngotiate, but NVA wasn't interested.
Remember the table in Paris -negotiating a year over its shape? N. Vietnam knew we couldn't stay forever, and only had to wait out our various bombs,mines
( Hanoi harbor) Co-ordinated with ARVN ops. Crpetbombing. etc.

It was a long war, i wasn't there, from what i've heard we would win the battles but not the hearts and minds. ARVN wasn't all that keen to fight.
Vietnam was a prefabricated civil war, with the artificial divison. We tried to sway the outcome, but the north knew time was on their side.
This says it ALL.

This is reality in Afg, while comparisons to Vietnam are valid, they are not the same - yes we created the Taliban, but as an anti-Soviet force.
We should have just left it at that. It's their land for self determination.It's a tribal situation only they can solve
Click to expand...

The West, most notably the US, continued to recognise the Kmer Rouge as the legitimate government of Cambodia even when the Vietnamese booted the fuckers out.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/US_PolPot.html
 
Aoxomoxoa said:
Where did you get the idea that I served in Vietnam? I am from England and I said that I was in Vietnam and Cambodia last year. The Taliban were not always in Afghanistan, they were created by the West abandoning the country to its fate previously. Had Bush not gone into Iraq and concentrated his efforts on booting the Taliban out directly after 9/11 then I believe the situation would be vastly different now. I further believe that the West has a moral duty to protect the women and men of Afghanistan from the fate that awaits them if those medieval monsters are allowed back. OF course when that happens you will probably not know about it because there will a news blackout imposed by the Taliban so you won't have to be confronted with the consequences of the decision to abandon Afghanistan again.
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First, I apologize. I assumed that you were in Vietnam also during the war.

With all due respect, I believe that you've misinterpreted my meaning .. and, I believe that the course I suggest is one more humane and correct that where you're going with this.

You have yet to answer my question of how long do you think US men and women should be dying in Afghanistan? It's a question that is close to me because you're asking that beautiful young woman in my avatar to continue to risk her life on a policy that you can't even define. This isn't just about ideals or what's good .. it's about what's possible .. it's about human lives.

From Vietnam to Iraq to Afghanistan .. the fate of the people we leave behind is the consequence of engaging in needless wars for profit. There is nothing unique about the fate of Afghani women that isn't true about Iraqi women .. that isn't true about Libyan women .. or that wasn't true about Vietnamese women .. all of which the UK happily partiicipated in by the way.

Again my point is should these not be considerations BEFORE we invade other countries for profit? In fact, they are considered .. then ignored.

The truth is the intelligence should happen before we engage in mass-murder for money .. after the fact it's too damn late .. and .. NO, hell NO .. US soldiers should not continue to die for somebody else to make a profit .. and NO, we should not leave our sons and daughters in Afghanistan any longer than we can rapidly get them out.

Two other points .. In case you haven't noticed, the Taliban are already back.

Taliban will rule Afghanistan again, says leaked US military report
Classified document is said to warn that Pakistan is plotting to help reinstall Taliban once Nato-led forces depart
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/01/taliban-rule-afghanistan-leaked-report

Taliban praises India for resisting Afghan entanglement
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4784765...-praises-india-resisting-afghan-entanglement/

Taliban destroy poppy fields in preparation of getting back in power?
http://www.mizozo.com/world/06/2012...-in-preparation-of-getting-back-in-power.html

Additionally, just like in Iraq, the people do not want us there .. never invited us to invade and destroy their country.

The only intelliegent recourse after the fact is through diplomat means and possible sanctions. Isn't that how we changed South Africa? Through diplomacy and sanctions .. not war?
 
Aoxomoxoa said:
The West, most notably the US, continued to recognise the Kmer Rouge as the legitimate government of Cambodia even when the Vietnamese booted the fuckers out.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/US_PolPot.html
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thanks for the link, didn't know that, i scanned it, it looks like thee US. was trying to maintain some kind of influence....honestly it's too early for me to follow the permutations of US duplicity.

The fact it exists, is not surprising though, appreciate the post :good4u:
 
enough said:
RETIRED NAVY SEAL FOUNDER OF ANTI-OBAMA PAC: ‘I HAVE TO ADMIT I’M A BIRTHER’

The retired Navy SEAL founder of the political action committee Special Operations Speaks, a group of veterans sharply critical of President Barack Obama’s treatment of the military, acknowledged that he doesn’t believe the president was born in the U.S.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ret...-anti-obama-pac-i-have-to-admit-im-a-birther/

:palm:
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Watch the magnificent smackdown of a nancy-boy member of this racist traitor's group on Hardball the other night by Michael Smirkonish and a real American hero, Jon Soltz.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/hardball/48707494#48707494



This guy is a wannabe...he pulled the same shit when Kerry was swiftboarded. Ran off and started his own group to snap up a share of the spotlight.
 
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